Posted by RJE/MI on 10/23/08 5:49pm
Msg #268052

Poll RE: All Purpose Ack.

Before I start I just want to let you all know that I did first try to find my answer using the search button and although there was a lot of info regarding acknowledgements I did not see my specific questions being addressed. If I missed it I apologize up front.

I received a call from a signing company that I did a signing for yesterday telling me that I forgot to notarize the compliance agreement. When I looked through the edocs that were sent to me there was a compliance agreement that in no way required a notarization. In the front of the package, nowhere near the compliance agreement was a loose all purpose acknowledgement with no instructions to fill it out and attach it to anything so I set aside as I usually do on the rare occasion that one gets sent with the package. I have never been questioned as to why I did not fill it out and send it back. The signing company wants me to fill it out and send it back to them so they can attach it to the compliance agreement.

I had a similar situation 2 years ago when my only source of information was XYZ. They told me a notary could not under any circumstances send in a loose acknowledgement without having the original document so that you, the notary, can attach it to the right document. They also told me even if you were to clearly specify on the acknowledgement what document that it may be attached to, you are still not allowed to do it because it could still be attached to a document other than the one you specified.

So I have 2 questions. First, is there an actual statue that states what the XYZ Company told me? Or is this just a Standard that SHOULD be followed? Secondly, how many of you do send in loose acknowledgements without having the original document that you are attaching it to if the above has happened or if a notarization was actually missed?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/23/08 5:59pm
Msg #268053

"First, is there an actual statue that states what the XYZ Company told me? Or is this just a Standard that SHOULD be followed?" You should check your MI notary law and/or your notary handbook regarding this issue, but IMO it's a standard that we all absolutely should follow.

"Secondly, how many of you do send in loose acknowledgements without having the original document that you are attaching it to if the above has happened or if a notarization was actually missed?" I don't - original must be returned for correction.

All MHO

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 10/23/08 6:00pm
Msg #268054

I Did a signing last week and had the same issue. I told them 1st. the acknowledgement was a California Ack. and I was in Pennsylvania so I wouldn't use that one anyway. 2nd I told her that I could not sent them a APA unless it was attached to the doc at the time of signing and the bottom stated the name of the doc she told me it was a lender req. I told her that the lender should have the Ack on the document like all the rest in the package she eventually said ok I'll call you back if there is a problem I rec. no call so I'll assume it was ok. If I were you I'd tell them NO WAY!

Reply by CF on 10/23/08 6:05pm
Msg #268055

Have them fax you a copy of the document in question that you did not notarize. After reviewing it; fill out an all purpose and write in the full document name.

Do not just fill out their all purpose- use your own. I have ones that let you put additional information on the bottom of it like: name of document, signers names, number of pages. That way you know that your all purpose is being attached to that specific documents.

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 10/23/08 6:13pm
Msg #268057

If you read original post it states the Document did not have a ACK on it. Poster did not forget it wasn't there if they send a ACK it could be attached to anything. In the package I completed there was no indication on the Compliance Aggreement that it needed to be notarized

Reply by CF on 10/24/08 1:27pm
Msg #268099

I did not read it right the first time and missed that the edocs package was looked back over and there was no notarization on the Compliance Agreement in the first place. My answer would be NO- never submit a blank acknowledgement. Just tell them that and move on!!!!

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/23/08 6:30pm
Msg #268059

Agree w/CF

It was an 'oversight' (not really...they could have said something BEFORE the fact).

Reply by PAW on 10/23/08 7:10pm
Msg #268061

Since the document in question did not require notarization, then the notarial act was never completed for that document. According to the MI Notary website (http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-127-1638_8736-85780--,00.html):

"... the document signer must make a personal appearance before the notary to confirm it is their signature prior to the document being notarized. Again, there is no exception to the requirement of a personal appearance before the notary."

Therefore, in my opinion, the signer must appear before the notary to confirm their signature. Then the notarization can take place. Further, the document and signature must be an original, not a copy. If a faxed copy of the document is used, the signer would need to resign the document before the notarization can be completed. Either way, the signer must be present when the act is completed.

Reply by sue_pa on 10/23/08 7:14pm
Msg #268063

In PA, we can NEVER send an ack after the fact. I'm betting most other states are the same way but people on these boards seem to send them to and fro as long as they have 'proof' of something.

In PA, no matter what the problem with the original document/ack, it must be taken back before the signers who will AGAIN ack to the notary that they signed, etc. The notary will then renotarize, FOR THE CURRENT DATE. There are no reacknowledgements, 'do overs', corrections, etc. It doesn't matter if the notary made a mistake, the doc preparer made a mistake, or something is actually destroyed (maybe a coffee spill).

Again, I'm betting if everyone got clarification from their own state, many would find out they're inappropriately supplying acks. Of course, many states may also be mute on the actual subject.

Reply by RJE/MI on 10/23/08 7:55pm
Msg #268065

Thanks To All!

Your info helps me a lot! I did end up calling my SOS office for clarification after the similar expierience from 2 years ago happened because the woman from that SS continued to call me and yell, demand and swear at me for 3 days insisting that I do it. She even told me that she hired me to do a job and I better do it because all her other notaries do it! I finally told her that I would call the MI SOS and verify with them that I indeed could not send in a loose ack. without having the original back. The SOS person told me that I could do whatever I was comfortable with. That confused me even more because what I read in my handbook and what XYZ told me was that I could not do it. Eventually she gave up but I started reliving that nightmare when this happened today because they have already sent me 3 emails instructing me to fill it out and send it back. Even after I explained to them how it needs to be taken care of correctly.

Oh well at least I have thicker skin then I did 2 years ago. Thanks again!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/23/08 8:03pm
Msg #268066

"So I have 2 questions. First, is there an actual statue that states what the XYZ Company told me? Or is this just a Standard that SHOULD be followed? Secondly, how many of you do send in loose acknowledgements without having the original document that you are attaching it to if the above has happened or if a notarization was actually missed?"

Whether or not there's a statute depends on your state, but common sense and a quick read of the acknowledgment wording should give you the answer. You're attesting to the fact that the signer appeared before you and acknowledged that it's his or her signature on the document. How is that possible if you don't have the original document AND the signer in front of you? If you just sign a loose acknowledgment and send it in, how do you know what it will ultimately be attached to?

I would never, ever, under any circumstances fill out a loose acknowledgment and mail it in. If I missed a notarization, I would want the document back and would have the signer reacknowledge at my expense - in my opinion, that's the only proper way to do it. If the lender/SS forgot to tell me to notarize that document, then getting it done is on their dime.

Regarding compliance agreements - they are usually notarized, but not always. It's not your call, not your responsibility, and not your problem to figure out whether or not to notarize- if there's no notarial block on the document, there's nothing for you to do.

Reply by RJE/MI on 10/23/08 8:09pm
Msg #268067

Understood and Agree! Thanks Again and Goodnight All! n/m