Posted by enotary/va on 10/28/08 10:10pm
Msg #268500
Right to Cancel
In a few of the doc packages you find a form that the borrower is supposed to sign after the three day right to cancel has elapsed. (Does not have to be notarized.) The form states in big black letters: DO NOT SIGN THIS FORM NOW. WAIT TIL AFTER THE RIGHT TO CANCEL HAS EXPIRED THEN SIGN AND SEND TO CLOSING COMPANY. I do what it says. Talking with another notary about this form. He stated that he always tells the borrower to sign it, but don’t date it, that if they don’t it could delay the funding of the loan. What do other notaries do with this form?
| Reply by Jessie Calderon on 10/28/08 10:25pm
Msg #268502
I advise the borrowers to sign the doc but date it the date after the RTC date. They have to fax the doc to their L.O. on that date so the loan can fund. If it is not faxed in the loan can't fund on disbursement date.
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/28/08 10:33pm
Msg #268504
At first I was not having the borrower sign it. Then, one TC told me to have them sign it and date it for the day after the recision period ends. Ex. If we sign on the 1st, have them date it for the 5th. So, that is what I have been doing now. Don't know if this is what all lenders want. I wish they had some instructions for this.
Actually had one in a reverse mortgage that I did just today. I've never seen this form before today. It is called Confirmation. It has 2 seperate parts to it.
The first part says more than 3 days have elapsed since the undersigned received this notice etc and that the transaction has not been recinded. Sign and date.
The second part says "If the borrower is not able to come back to the closing office after 3 days, Closing Agent please certify below. I am aware that I am required to provide the borrowers with two 2 orginal notice of right to cancel disclosure forms. Knowing this, I certify that I have given these orginals to the borrower. Notary signs and dates.
| Reply by jojo_MN on 10/28/08 10:44pm
Msg #268507
It says in big letters "Do Not Sign Until After Three Days Have Elapsed.". How hard is that to understand? If a loan didn't fund, I am sure that if it were taken to court, the lender would have some explaining to do. What if the borrower decided to cancel a loan. The lender/TC already has this document in their hand saying that the borrower signed this after the three days. Who knows if it would hold up in court. I'm not an attorney, so don't have the legal answer.
If needed, I'm sure the borrower could fax it after the RTC and send the original. There are reasons for the law. I've had this document in packages and let them decide whether or not to sign. They couple that did sign it, did not date it. I'm sure the other loans funded without any problems.
| Reply by ChristineHI on 10/28/08 11:30pm
Msg #268512
I have seen these and I always ask the lender what they want. I have them put the instructions in writing in a separate email. I don't want a borrower's loan to get held up in funding but I also always cover myself in case someone comes back to me.
Most borrowers don't mind signing it at the closing, from my experience, since most people are not planning on cancelling, but I don't want anyone to ever say I forced them to sign it.
In the end, I always do what the lender wants, but in that case I make sure I have recourse later if it ever becomes an issue by making sure I have something in writing. =-)
Good question!!!!! ALOHA
| Reply by Roger_OH on 10/28/08 11:37pm
Msg #268514
I'd never have the BOs sign and post date that doc. I have them initial the doc with a note that they will fax their copy in on the 4th post-closing day if they wish not to cancel.
I put their copy of the doc on top of their copy package and tell them to sign it on the 4th morning and fax it in to the number provided if they wish to accept the loan.
Have never had a problem with this approach.
| Reply by Jessie Calderon on 10/28/08 11:42pm
Msg #268516
I just want to clarify what I posted earlier. I inform the borrowers that they need to date the document the date after the RTC date and sign. I have them date the document so that when they do fax the document, they have the date correct. There are times that the borrowers want to write the date in before I leave. I don't see a problem with that since I am not taking the document with me. They have to fax the signed document the day after the RTC date. What the L.O. or lender asks them to do with the original is between the BO and the LO/lender.
| Reply by CaliNotary on 10/28/08 11:44pm
Msg #268517
"What if the borrower decided to cancel a loan. The lender/TC already has this document in their hand saying that the borrower signed this after the three days. Who knows if it would hold up in court. I'm not an attorney, so don't have the legal answer."
I'm not an attorney, but I know the legal answer. You have 3 days to cancel your loan for any reason, the lender having that form signed doesn't take away that right.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/08 12:15am
Msg #268521
I let the lender tell the borrower if they want it signed and dated for the day after the rtc passes or if they want it sent by the borrower in three days. I don't have a problem with either. You can't waive or rescind an rtc. If they decide within three days to cancel, it supersedes anything else. I'm not an attorney yada yada yada...
| Reply by BobbiCT on 10/29/08 7:07am
Msg #268525
Giving legal advice ...
Giving legal advice to a consumer to "sign this form and do not date it because I am returning it to the company with the loan package" can also be referred to as ...
Go directly to jail. Do not collect $200.
What if the consumer WANTS to cancel, the receiver of the loan documents wants to get paid (contract is only paid on funding), so the receiver shreds the RTC the consumer sent stating they are canceling and dates the RTC saying they are not canceling? I do not want that liability when sued because "the notary instructed me to sign the 'no cancellation' form without out a date and return BEFORE the recission period expired." Plaintiff lawyer money maker!!!
| Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/08 8:10am
Msg #268531
That's why I let the lender tell the borrower directly. n/m
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/29/08 8:44am
Msg #268532
Re: That's why I let the lender tell the borrower directly.
Not all borrowers have access to a fax machine. In most rural areas, this is the case. They would have to hire me again to go out and have this one form signed to send in is why they just want it dated for after the recission period ends. This is what I have been told each time this form is in the pkg. They still have the right to cancel, that doesn't change.
| Reply by PAW on 10/29/08 2:29pm
Msg #268555
Re: That's why I let the lender tell the borrower directly.
>>> Not all borrowers have access to a fax machine. In most rural areas, this is the case. <<<
I disagree. As was previously stated, even in rural areas, access to a fax machine is not that far away. Granted, many homes do not have faxing capability, but just about every neighborhood has some store (even many 7-11 stores) that can fax a document. Also, many people who are refinancing have jobs they go to. I'd bet dollars to donuts that most businesses have fax capability or are located relatively close to a business that offers faxing.
Personally, I simply state the purpose of the 'confirmation' form and let the borrowers decide what they want to do. If asked, "What would you do?" I simply reply that it's not up to me to decide what needs to be done. If the borrower's have any questions on how to handle the document, they can talk to their loan officer, preferably after we complete the signing.
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/29/08 3:53pm
Msg #268565
Re: That's why I let the lender tell the borrower directly.
"I disagree. As was previously stated, even in rural areas, access to a fax machine is not that far away. Granted, many homes do not have faxing capability, but just about every neighborhood has some store (even many 7-11 stores) that can fax a document. Also, many people who are refinancing have jobs they go to. I'd bet dollars to donuts that most businesses have fax capability or are located relatively close to a business that offers faxing."
PAW, I guarantee you there are miles and miles between towns where I live. One borrower off the top of my head it is 8 miles to the nearest town and I would bet a million bucks that the ONLY gas station/store in that town does NOT have a fax machine. In fact I guarantee they don't have a fax machine because I used to own that station and they do not have one. It would be another 8 miles to the nearest town which is even smaller yet and I would bet that the only place there that would have a fax machine would be the firehouse, which is not manned. Then its another 10 miles to the town where I live. So, we are talking about 26 miles to the closest fax machine. Yes, its hard to fathom, but believe me, it gets very very rurual here in southern IL and across this great land it can be much of the same.
If I was at the closing table closing my own loan and I was told to fax this 1 document in and I had to drive 26 miles 1 way to do it, I would be asking "What is another way we can do this?" It is an Inconvience to anyone to have to do this, much less older people and people who live way out". When you close, you close. Nothing more should have to be done IMO.
| Reply by PAW on 10/29/08 9:57pm
Msg #268624
Re: That's why I let the lender tell the borrower directly.
C'mon, give it a break. I too used to live in southern IL (Cahokia) before crossing the river to St. Peters and St. Charles, MO. Finding a fax machine isn't that difficult in most places. Granted, there will be a few, but not that many times would it be necessary.
Here's an option: Overnight, priority mail! If the lender really wants the confirmation before they fund, have them spring for FedEx or UPS. You may be surprised at what the lender will do.
I do agree, I don't think the "confirmation" is needed. "Belts and suspenders!" Kinda like Microsoft's "Are you sure?" messages!!
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/29/08 10:32pm
Msg #268625
Paw, When did you live in Cahokia? Its not a very safe
place anymore at night? Really gone down and a depressed area. I don't go into E. St. Louis day or night either or Venice. Dupo is still ok and Waterloo and Millstadt have really grown. I grew up in Belleville.
I'll give it a break after this. lol
Those areas are not considered rural. Those are cities with many businesses. I am talking about St. Libory, Darmstadt, Fayetteville, Lively Grove, Lenzburg etc. I have closed some in these very small towns. For ex: in Fayettville there is 1 corner store, 1 church and a firehouse. That is it. In Darmstadt there is only a tavern left. In St. Libory there is a gas station (the one I used to own), a meat market, 1 restuarant and a tavern. Cahokia is like a huge city compared to these little towns.
I do like the idea of UPS or Fed Ex picking up the doc, but that needs to be worked out ahead of time also and who pays for that? Hopefully the lender.
Anyway, it puts a burden on the borrower that shouldn't be IMO.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/08 9:09am
Msg #268535
Seems to me this is pretty clear..
" WAIT TIL AFTER THE RIGHT TO CANCEL HAS EXPIRED THEN SIGN AND SEND TO CLOSING COMPANY"
I do not have them sign it at the table. I leave this form on top of the package, show the borrowers where it is, and stress to them the importance of doing this - any questions, call the LO - if the borrowers can't be trusted (or aren't smart enough) to put the correct date on the form (which is usually stated in the instructions - "one day AFTER this day"...) then maybe they shouldn't be taking the loan to begin with. I see no reason to send someone back out to do this either.
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/29/08 9:18am
Msg #268536
Linda, with all due respect
its not that the borrowers "aren't smart enough" which is degrading, as you put it, it is the fact that they have NO way of getting it back to them on the correct day. They DON"T have fax machines is the problem. There are still many many homes without computers, much less fax machines. The ONLY way to get it back is to have US go out and get it signed and faxed back to them, or the other choice is to have them PRE date it and send it in with the original pkg. That seems the most logical way, easiest way to get this done for all concerned.
BTW, why in the world is this form necessary anyway? That should be the question. The borrowers have 3 days to cancel. Why is it necessary to even say they are NOT going to cancel after the 3 days. Doesn't make any sense, but who am I (We) to question, right?
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/08 9:31am
Msg #268537
Re: Linda, with all due respect
"The ONLY way to get it back is to have US go out and get it signed and faxed back to them, or the other choice is to have them PRE date it and send it in with the original pkg"
I disagree - I'd say 95% of the borrowers I've dealt with, even in my very rural area, do have access, one way or another, to get this back to the company - in most instances both work so they can get to a fax machine. For those who don't have that access, I have them speak with their LO right from the table to clear up how to do it.
Smart enough = addressed to the "wrong date" issue.
As to necessity, we used to have a similar form in CT where I worked (law firm) - clients had to come in the day after the rescission period ended to sign off that they didn't cancel the loan and their check wasn't released until they did - if both spouses couldn't make it in they were given the form to take home with them and sign and return day of disbursement - no disbursements made until they came in. It was CYA thing for the attorney's file - confirmation that they in fact did not rescind. Many lenders probably requiring this now - I know one lender I close for has this in all their packages.
| Reply by enotary/va on 10/29/08 10:37am
Msg #268541
Re: Linda, with all due respect
Linda Juenger = I agree with you. Since putting this question on last night I’ve called 2 TC and both told me if the BO didn’t have a problem signing the form then let them sign it. They can hold it to mail / fax or send it back by the notary. Signing this form does not cancel out their right to a three day right to cancel.
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/29/08 11:18am
Msg #268544
enotary. I too have called and asked TC on what their
procedure is for this form. I was told every time to have the borrower sign it, date it after the recission date and send it back with the pkg. This ensures this form gets back and not rely on the borrowers or us making another trip. Makes the most logical sense.
| Reply by LisaWI on 10/29/08 11:54am
Msg #268545
Re: Linda, with all due respect-Why is it necessary? Example
I had a closing where the borrower had rescineded and mailed in his RTC on the very last day to rescind, with disbursement being the day after. The lender in turn when they received it, notified the TC. But it was too late. By the time the TC had been notified, the girl at the TC had disbursed all funds, including my check. She was frazzled as she had to put a stop payment on all checks and all wires.
The borrower had done as instructed, but our good ol mail system got the RTC to the lender at such a later date, that it really messed up alot of things.
| Reply by MelissaCT on 10/29/08 12:20pm
Msg #268546
RTC doesn't have to be RECEIVED by midnight day 3
it must only be sent by then.
| Reply by LisaWI on 10/29/08 12:34pm
Msg #268549
Re: RTC doesn't have to be RECEIVED by midnight day 3
Exactly. Thats why in this particular case, it really turned into a nightmare. The lender had already wired the funds to the TC on the day of disbursement. The RTC was delivered to them one or two days after disbursement (cant remember exactly). They had to cancel the loan which already had been disbursed. And to boot, the borrower didnt tell or contact anyone that he was doing this, so they had no warning.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/08 9:09pm
Msg #268614
Re: RTC doesn't have to be RECEIVED by midnight day 3
I always tell people to send their RTC registered or certified so they can show it was sent on time, and I always inform them to call someone such as their l.o. or the t.c. to inform them that they canceled.
| Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 11/3/08 3:15pm
Msg #268942
Re: RTC doesn't have to be RECEIVED by midnight day 3
1st - some borrowers aren't rocket scientists, but most are nice decent, hardworking folks & don't deserve to be be insulted - even in this forum - they are our bread & butter! I've had some that were sloooow, but I just take a deep breath, smile & try to be as pleasant as possible - for them to trust us - total strangers with their most prized possesion - allows us to make a living.
2nd - a lot of the packages I've had have a fax # on the RTC. I tell them to make sure they keep a copy of the fax transmittal & mail in a copy of the RTC. If there's no fax, I always tell them to contact the LO & obtain it.
I've only had that other form questioned once by an SS, but once I reiterated the instrux NOT to sign until 3 days had passed, that was the end of that!
In this day & age of mortgage fraud, I NEVER tell them to sign, date... EVER! I don't want to be in smelling distance of anthing that's not on the up & up. Sometimes people can be confused & the 1st thing they'll say is: "...the Notary told me to sign /date it, etc.
So many states are trying to become attorney states & this could add fuel to the fire. What if - God forbid - the borrower gets ill, falls into a coma, or dies? Then the TC has a piece of paper, signed while this person was comatose & who had it signed & returned w/ the package? The Notary!!!! Not being morbid, s*** happens! Even if you just get it signed & leave it w/ the borrower, as I said before, some older or less knowledgeable folks could get confused.
Inconvenient or not, it's beter to follow the WRITTEN instrux or ... 'Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!' Not to mention:
1- be out of a job
2 - get sued
3 - go directly to jail...
JMO
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