Posted by Joan Bergstrom on 10/28/08 12:32am
Msg #268382
The CA notary Exam
In the previous posts so many notaries (from CA) had very many negative posts to say about our CA exam and yet we are just one of a very few states that give an exam! This is stunning to me and I hope it is to you?
We are trying to stop fraud in steps that no other state has come close to (my opinion).
It doesn't mean we can't do better, but please post if your state has done what we have accomplished in CA since 2005?
1.2005 All notaries require 6 hr study period or classroom attendance.
2. 2008 all personal knowledge was eliminated as I.D. for Ack & Jurats
3. 2008 Fingerprints required for all notaries no matter how long he/she had been a notary and are sent to our Ca DOJ & the FBI.
4 2008 Power of Attorney required a thumbprint.
Here are the big ones that started Jan 1, 2008!
5. $10,000 fine for: Failure to obtain proper evidence of a person making an ACK
6. Falsifing an ACK is forgery punishable by imprisionment in the county jail for up to 1 year.
What does this mean? in my opinon it means: The notary backdated and/or the client didn't personally appear before the notary at the time of notarization. I call them "ghost signers."
Remember: for instance you can't do an Ack or Jurat over the phone anymore than a dentist can pull you teeth over the phone!
7. Perjury is punishable by imprisonment for 2, 3, or 4 years.
8. CA notary doesn't report a change of address (employment or residence) in 30 days is a $500 fine.
9. Failure to obtain a fingerprint, when required, for our journal is a $2,500 fine
I won't get into the $750/$1,500 fines that have been have been in the Ca handbook for years.
I think CA is trying; what do you think?
| Reply by PAW on 10/28/08 7:08am
Msg #268390
The FL Notary
>>1.2005 All notaries require 6 hr study period or classroom attendance.<<
In FL, all NEW notaries are required to complete a 3 hour training. This can be done in classroom or online. Most online courses have a test at the end to ensure that the material was read. Classroom training does not have any examination or test.
>>>2. 2008 all personal knowledge was eliminated as I.D. for Ack & Jurats<<
The FL SOS and Governor's Notary Section still hold that "personal knowledge" is the best identification of a person. Using personal knowledge, which is defined in the notary handbook, relies on the honesty and integrity of the notary.
>>>3. 2008 Fingerprints required for all notaries no matter how long he/she had been a notary and are sent to our Ca DOJ & the FBI.<<<
At this time, background checks are completed for FL notary applicants, but fingerprints are not required.
>>>4 2008 Power of Attorney required a thumbprint.<<<
Consumer thumbprints are not authorized for notarial functions, in FL.
The Florida statutes already address the charges and fines for failing to perform under the statutes. These charges vary from various degrees of misdemeanors and felonies. All notarial actions are subject to review by the Secretary of State, the Florida Bar and ultimately the Florida Supreme Court.
| Reply by sue_pa on 10/28/08 7:50am
Msg #268396
in PA
Stopping fraud is not mentioned as a notarial duty.
I find your #2 amazing. Personal knowledge is not acceptable but 2 complete strangers can act as witnesses. So I can't notarize for my sister if she doesn't have id on her but I can get her neighbors, who I've only ever spoken to in passing, to id her.
PA also sanctions notaries - I believe the majority of the most recent ones were for failure to keep a register and failure for personal appearance. Punishments varied from 'probation' and fines to revocation of commissions.
I believe many of us on the outside looking in see totally idiotic posts coming from CA (actually they come from everywhere) but we (at least me) can't figure out why someone doesn't know the basics after completing their education and taking a test as CA requires. Of course I realize there will always be questions, completely off the wall scenarios, and various interpretations but I am talking the very basics here.
| Reply by sue_pa on 10/28/08 7:54am
Msg #268398
should have said
...Stopping fraud is not mentioned as a notarial duty...
I should have said that if I 'see' fraud, I won't be a participant but 'stopping' fraud isn't the basic reason my commission was issued. I get id from a person standing in front of me, I ascertain they are siging something of their own free will, and I stamp away.
| Reply by 101livescan on 10/28/08 9:33am
Msg #268419
Re: should have said
Different in CA...right out of our CA SOS handbook....
470. Forgery; signatures or seals; corruption of records
* * *
(b) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, counterfeits or forges the seal or handwriting
of another is guilty of forgery.
* * *
(d) Every person who, with the intent to defraud, falsely makes, alters, forges, or counterfeits,
utters, publishes, passes or attempts or offers to pass, as true and genuine, any of the following
items, knowing the same to be false, altered, forged, or counterfeited, is guilty of forgery:
… or falsifies the acknowledgment of any notary public, or any notary public who issues an
acknowledgment knowing it to be false; or any matter described in subdivision (b).
The primary duty of CA notaries is to ensure they perform their duties in such a manner as to prevent fraud from occurring by carrying out the notarization as prescribed by California Government Codes.
The little notary who falsified the documents she notarized for the Newport Beach couple who laid at the bottom of the ocean floor when Deleon presented the purchase and sale documents for the yacht he had "purchased"...forgery is the primary infraction, the document signers did not personally appear before her, hence they could not sign her journal because they were dead! all for a couple thousand dollars which I'm sure the FBI required her to return, victims of crime will account for this, the families of the deceased grandparents.
| Reply by MichiganAl on 10/28/08 10:57am
Msg #268426
I see the same thing
With all due respect to those regular posters from CA who do actually understand their duties, all I have to do is read the board on a daily basis to see that CA produces the most confused, unprepared notaries and NSAs. Could it be that those who teach these classes are teaching people how to pass a test, but not at all teaching them how to actually do their jobs properly?
| Reply by rengel/CA on 10/28/08 5:22pm
Msg #268483
BINGO MichiganAl!
The classes taught in CA give only enough info to pass the test. I took my 6 hr class in November '07 to renew my commission. The class taught for the 2007 notary laws, when there were HUGE changes starting in January 2008. The instructors were not allowed to address any of the new laws on that day. Yikes!
So we end up with notaries who, like a previous co-worker, believe that, "I just did this thing for the employer and they will pay any fines I get." She sure changed her tune when I informed her that it would be HER but sitting in that jail cell and not the employers! I actually thought she was going to pass out.
Fortunately for all of us, she has moved out of state and turned in her commission.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 10/28/08 8:41am
Msg #268409
Beyond saying I think CA is nuts and has some of the most puzzling laws (Sue's example and y'all seem to constantly argue about what scenarios allow 'credible witnesses'; oh, and the 'new' Employer ID being acceptable, which I think is just begging for problems), I'm not getting into this as I don't have a dog in this fight.
| Reply by Dave_CA on 10/28/08 9:43am
Msg #268420
While I agree about personal knowledge being better that two credible witnesses the confusion about using them stems from a very poorly written statue or the interpretation of it provided by the SOS.
The statue says "The notary public must establish the identity of the credible witness
by the presentation of paper identification documents as set forth above. Under oath, the
credible witness must swear or affirm that each of the following is true (Civil Code section
1185(b)(1)(A)(i)-(v)):
1. The individual appearing before the notary public as the signer of the document is the
person named in the document;
2. The credible witness personally knows the signer;
3. The credible witness reasonably believes that the circumstances of the signer are
such that it would be very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of
identification;
4. The signer does not possess any of the identification documents authorized by law to
establish the signer’s identity;
5. The credible witness does not have a financial interest and is not named in the document
signed."
The problem is that the statue says that all 5 conditions must be met BUT the SOS, when asked about #3, says that it means "at the time of signing" and when queried about #4 that an expired ID or an ID in a previous name means they do not posses any of the ID docs authorized by law...
So take your pick. Either the law is poorly written or the SOS is giving a very liberal interpretation.
| Reply by John_NorCal on 10/28/08 12:12pm
Msg #268439
**Either the law is poorly written or the SOS is giving a very liberal interpretation.**
My opinion is that a lot of the laws as stated in the Notary hand book are poorly written. For instance the book says that if a notary is presented with a will to be notarized then the presentor should be, not must be, advised to consult with an attorney and the notary should refuse to notarize the will. In practice a will does not need to be notarized in California, if the signor chooses they can just have 2 witnesses sign.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/08 12:56pm
Msg #268450
Actually... Wills are no longer addressed in the handbook.
Seriously. Download the 2008 handbook and do a search for "will" in the document. Not one single mention about it. There used to be a warning from the State Bar in the handbook, but not anymore.
That doesn't mean the advice is no longer valid of course... I'm just wondering why the SOS took it out of the handbook. In fact, I'm not sure it was in the 2007 handbook, either.
| Reply by John_NorCal on 10/28/08 2:17pm
Msg #268461
Re: Actually... Wills are no longer addressed in the handbook.
You're right, couldn't find it either. Maybe they'll do some work on the handbook to make it more clear cut and concise. Of course it's come a long way from the 1970's! I don't recall ever seeing any kind of handbook when I went for my first commission in 1974. It was just sign here, hold up your right hand and swear and presto ---- you're a notary!
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/28/08 9:04pm
Msg #268495
Statue vs Statute
"While I agree about personal knowledge being better that two credible witnesses the confusion about using them stems from a very poorly written statue or the interpretation of it provided by the SOS.
The statue says..."
I don't mean to pick on you personally, but you repeated the mistake at least three times in the same message. I've seen others confuse this consistently enough to make me believe it's not just a typo, so let's be clear on this...
A STATUE is an object that pigeons poop on.
A STATUTE is a law.
If we could all get that straight, some of these discussions would make more sense 
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