Posted by John_NorCal on 10/25/08 6:59pm
Msg #268228

The state of our potential notaries.....

Went to take my renewal test this morning. While the proctor was giving instructions on filling out your name, birthdate etc and filling in the corresponding blocks under each charactor, one of the applicants asked the proctor to hold up, she was going to fast. The proctor told the guy that he could catch up.

My point is that with such simple instructions to follow, and with a modicum of common sense required, how in h___ can this person expect to be a qualified notary? Oh well, I wonder if he was a XYZ graduate?!

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 10/25/08 8:58pm
Msg #268233

It isn't pretty ................. n/m

Reply by Michelle/AL on 10/25/08 9:04pm
Msg #268234

John, if you see that guy again, tell him to come to Alabama

....there's no proctoring, no fancy forms to fill it, no tests to take. He can take all the time he needs by filling out a very simple application form. In fact, he can take the form home with him if he'd and get a friend to complete it for him.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 10/25/08 9:04pm
Msg #268235

It's so easy, even a caveman can do it! n/m

Reply by dickb/wi on 10/26/08 12:16pm
Msg #268261

thats because a cave man is insured with geico....... n/m

Reply by John_NorCal on 10/25/08 10:37pm
Msg #268242

Jeez, that sounds exactly how it was in California

when I got my first commission in 1974!

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 10/25/08 11:44pm
Msg #268244

Is Michelle /Alabama bragging?

CA doesn't do a perfect job in training notaries, but would we want to follow the Alabama way?

At the very least, we have a 6 hour study period or classroom attendance requirement which requires taking a CA State Notary test every four years. The test questions change every month.

The notaries from CA who regularly post on this website; Calinotary, Charles, Glenn, Maureen, Calnotary/etc ( I know I am leaving out a few that don't come to the top of my head) are the best & the brightest Calif notaries who don't need to take a 6 hour program to pass the test or fill out our CA Application, but are required to.

All these people need to do is go to one of the CA public testing sites and get signed in and ace the test.

The notaries, I think, who are struggling at these public testing locations are people who fulfilled their 6 hr requirement by the online/home study, DVD/ formats rather than a 6 hour classroom. Every vendor in CA offers this type of 6 hour study program.

The CA application is not easy to fill out for many people; if 1 thing is wrong or something left out the application is returned to the applicant. It might be easy for some people but we in CA want to fill it out fast and that's the problem. The other problem is some people just "don't listen to instructions."


The CA proctors are wonderful at helping check an application by a notary, but its not their responsibility to see that it is absolutely correct.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/26/08 1:30am
Msg #268247

The application is difficult to fill out? Since when?

The application is a single page with step-by-step instructions that take a full page. If somebody messes up the application it is because they didn't read or pay attention to the instructions.

During the exam, it's not that complicated, either. It's a mater of filling in some bubbles on a Scantron from.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/26/08 3:16am
Msg #268250

Re: The application is difficult to fill out? Since when?

It's just a bit tedious - and antiquated. You have to fill in all the bubbles with the good old number two pencil, which few people are accustomed to anymore. Pretty straight forward, but I can see how if someone had a long name, they might fall behind... (Just playing devil's advocate here.)

Reply by Michelle/AL on 10/26/08 7:30am
Msg #268255

Re: Is Michelle /Alabama bragging? - Joan, not at all....

I'm glad you asked the question because that's not the opnion I want to give you or anyone else. I guess my sarcarsm did not come across very well.

I wish Alabama had higher standards: exam, continuing education, background check requirement, handbook, etc. I moved to Alabama in 2004 and was blown away that I was able to purchase a notary bond and be approved to be a notary during my one hour lunch break (ok, it actually took 1 1/2 hours) on one workday. I kept telling myself (as I waited for my commission to be typed up) that what the clerk was actually doing was running my driver's license number or verifying that I didn't have a criminal record. But that wasn't the case.

I have contacted the SOS and our local county clerk's office to see if there is something/any thing I can do with my representative to make improvements to the process. Right now, the SOS is preoccupied with the elections so I'll follow-up next year.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/26/08 11:29am
Msg #268259

Re: Is Michelle /Alabama bragging? - Joan, not at all....

I got the sarcasm, Michelle. I'm amazed, too, at how easy it is as you said. I think that just kind of shows that some people, including local and state officials don't even realize what notaries do.

I'm not one who likes a lot of regulation and rules generally... but when it comes to this, I firmly beleive it should be more regulated. That's why the CA standards don't bother me at all, even though plenty of people complain about them.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 10/26/08 11:22pm
Msg #268288

Re: Is Michelle /Alabama bragging? - Joan, not at all....

I aplogize, it went right over my head.

You sound like your are a great notary who really cares!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/25/08 9:13pm
Msg #268237

Heh. I had the same experience earlier this month. The proctor, bless her heart, has obviously done a lot of these. I didn't think she was going too fast. In fact, I think she was taking it quite slowly and was very clear with her instructions... almost (though not quite) to the point of being a bit patronizing. She was very clear when she said, "Do it this way. Do not ask questions. You'll understand why later."

When I was in line outside the testing room, I noticed that a very HIGH number of them all held the blue re-take voucher, which means they've already failed the test at least once. I also noted that a LOT of them were cramming out of the same study booklet, one that is about 100 pages and stapled down the center as a binding. I'm pretty sure it was the XYZ manual.

The test was not that difficult. Anyone who has been a (good) notary or bothered to actually study and commit some things to memory (like all of the various fines and punishments) and that has a semi-decent ability for reading comprehension can pass that test well within the limits.

It's the ones who take the exam following a 6-hour seminar that really scare me. I know a woman who will be taking the XYZ seminar and exam all in the same day next month. She's doing because of her schedule and her boss is paying her to go and have the day off work. I begged her to reconsider. I gave her copies of other training manuals and the CA handbook told her that she needed to study it before the seminar and she doesn't get it. She actually said, "They'll teach me everything I need to know that day."

I tried to tell her that no...they won't. They'll only teach her how to pass the exam, not how to be a notary. She's only doing it because her boss wants a notary in-house for the occasional times they they need one.

I know there are a lot of instructors here who read here...but dang it... I truly believe that they need to outlaw the ability to take the exam immediately following a seminar. The only exceptions to that rule should be renewing notaries and the refresher course. I think new notaries should be required to wait at least 14 days between completion of their training and the exam so that they are forced to study and retain some information. Perhaps even discover places like NotRot where they can research any questions they might have.

Of course, I also think the state needs to add to the training more education about the role of a notary and identity theft training. Afterall, that's the heart of what we do in certifying signatures --- and they just tend to say, "Here are the forms of ID you can accept," yet they don't tell you how to help spot forged documents.

If you want to be a nurse or an accountant....or even a CNA, mechanic or barber in this state, you have to prove much more than simple 6-hour quickie training before certification. And yet, the office of Notary Public which has a WHOLE LOT of potential civil and legal liabilities attached to it can be obtained by almost any idiot.

It's a good thing the numbers are reportedly dropping... something in the process seems to be weeding them out, either because of the exam, the money, the expanded background checks or the expanded legal ramifications (penalty of perjury).

Let's just hope that the ones who have trouble with putting their name on the exam don't actually get past that point. I recognize that there could be some cases with physical disability where a proctor would need to take more time...but those people need to ask for accommodation ahead of time.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/26/08 12:16am
Msg #268245

Surely you jest....

"If you want to be a nurse or an accountant..."

C'mon now how can you possibly equate a nurse or an accountant with a notary. A notary only needs to bre able to identify a person, and know the wording of two certificates. A notary is the simplest comission available. You have got to get some perspective on whaqt your job is with relation to the industry as a whole. Its just not that complicated!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/26/08 1:22am
Msg #268246

I think you're taking what I said too literally...

Yes, the job of a notary is dead simple. Perhaps too simple, really. Thing is, especially in California with all the strict laws, there is substantial responsibility involved in those easy tasks. How many truly basic questions have been asked here that should be second nature to a good notary? That's because those asking the questions clearly haven't learned enough to realize just how easy the job is.

I'm not comparing the higher end jobs with being a notary directly. What I meant was that despite being such an easy job, I believe it requires far more than 6 hours of a seminar training to full understand it. Yes, the details of the job can be expalined in that time, but do they really get it?

If so, then why were there at least 30-40 people in line with the re-take voucher earlier this month when I sat for the exam? I watched so many of them cramming from their booklets and I just sat there shaking my head. The exam was easy for me, but I can see why it could be challenging for some people. The questions are definitely put in such a way that if you're not paying 100% attention to all of the key words... you're going to get it wrong. I think that's an excellent test of a notary's awareness, too... not just in knowledge of the material but of their overall job.

What I was saying was that the position of Notary Public is far more than the job itself, which is really quite easy. The moral, legal and civil responsibilities of it can play a huge role, especially in California where it is so regulated and every time we use our seal we're certifying our work under the penalty of perjury.

The stature and responsibility of a job does not always equal the qualifications or duties performed.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/26/08 3:50am
Msg #268251

Right! - plus RE fraud/elder abuse & notary liability

First of all, I sooo agree about not taking the test the same day. I've been on my soapbox here about that so many times that people are probably sick of hearing it. But I do think it would make a huge difference if first-time notaries had to wait two weeks after the class to take the exam.

As for the responsibility of the job, yes, I think that is definitely more important than ever. Case in point, I did a signing last night where a friend of the borrower was there to offer assisitance. This person is a real estate fraud investigator specializing in elder abuse. He stated that in CA, Notaries Public are **required by law** to report any suspicion of elder abuse -- and would be legally protected against being sued, should we report something.

However, outside that scenario, he said that lenders who find themselves in a bind with a given transaction -- and we know that is happening in ever increasing numbers -- are going after anyone they can, including notaries. When the market was booming, they didn't care, because they could just turn around and resell a house quickly if they got stuck, but not so today.

And there are borrowers looking for any legal loophole they can find to get out of a loan they can't afford (or for a property where they are seriously upside down). One common ruse is claiming that they didn't receive their copies of completed RTC forms. [I've been advised by an attorney friend who specializes in this area to never leave blank RTC forms with the borrowers. Doesn't matter if they signed saying that they did receive them. Some are presenting the blank pages as a way to get out of the loan!] This is just one example. Bottom line, the liability is greater for notaries than ever before and there is more at stake with every transaction, so it pays to know what you're doing!!

***One more thing, if any of you in Southern California ever find yourself in a situation where you suspect someone is taking advantage of an elderly person, pressuring them to sign a loan (especially cash out), this guy said he would like to hear about it and would be happy to investigate. Naturally, he didn't want me to post his name and number online, but said I shouldn't hesitate to give it out personally. If you run into a situation where you suspect a problem, feel free to contact me and I will put you in touch with him. (I think he's based in LA County.) He told me about some cases he is investigating that would just make your blood run cold. It's hard to believe that people can be so heartless -- and ruthless!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/26/08 4:50am
Msg #268253

Re: Right! - plus RE fraud/elder abuse & notary liability

My 9-5 job right now is actually in the eldercare field and we deal directly with both the seniors and their family members, conservators, etc. I swear I've seen almost everything when it comes to elder abuse.

It is true that by State law anyone with contact with a senior, (or a child, disabled adult, etc) who is covered by the Business and Professions code suspects negligence or abuse is considered a mandatory reporter.

But, notaries are not listed under that code. CA notary law is under the Government and Civil Codes. Morally, though... we should always report suspected abuse.

But at the moment in time of a signing? It can be difficult to tell if a senior is acting in his/her full capacity. Because I've done it for so long, I know how to engage the person in conversation to a point where I feel comfortable with their state of mind. That doesn't mean I'm making a medical determination... I'm just seeing if they understand what's happening right then and there. And then, it's even more difficult to know if they are doing it under pressure or coercion. The trick is not to say something like, "Do you understand what this paper is?" That's accusatory and could cause problems. Sometimes it's better to make small talk and ask polite, social questions. That's probably all you'll need.

That's also why it's important to take notes! Note each person who was present, whether they signed or not. Mental competency can come and go, and a few days (or hours) of lucidity may be all it takes for someone to jump in and pounce.

But, determining competency really isn't our job except to the point of being able to effectively communicate with the signer. I think that's something up to interpretation for all of us. But mostly, it's where the moral aspect of the job comes in to play and makes a seemingly simple task a little more complicated when we're looking at perjury charges and all those fines and punishments if we do something wrong. Yes, the actual job is simple, but the social and moral pressure is a lot more complicated at times.

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/26/08 6:51pm
Msg #268264

Marian, please explain why certifying our work under penalty

of perjury makes our role a more responsible one than before the verbiage was added to our Acks. Does it in your mind mean we must do anything different than before this sentence was added? I am just curious how other notaries feel about this. For me, I am always so careful with id'ing the person and would never even consider notarizing a document without the person appearing and signing in front of me and would never date any date other than the one I did the notarization on.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/26/08 9:09pm
Msg #268283

Re: Marian, please explain why certifying our work under penalty

I don't think it makes a lick of difference for those who do their job well, Kathy. I know that for most us of us, the added wording means little.

But is can act as deterrent and a reminder to those who DO or HAVE in the past fudged the dates a little or "did a favor" for someone they know by notarizing without them present. WIth that sentence now, some notaries who have pushed it before probably no longer will.

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/26/08 9:40pm
Msg #268285

Gottcha! Those notaries that do that will do doubt stop to

think before they break the law, or at least I hope they will! I enjoy your posts very much Marian.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/27/08 12:04am
Msg #268289

Mission Creep is the problem....

I see notaries every day who think their job entails more then their job entails. I see notaries who consider their job as the loan police, attorneys, guardians of the poor and a plethora of other ill-concieved concepts. The job of the notary is to determine that the person who is signing is the correct person and that they complete two declarations. I am not reading too much into what you say. I see this abuse every day and I refuse to use a notary who does not understand what the job is, I don't want a notary who second thinks the LO, I don't want a notary who second thinks the REALTOR, you are not licensed to perform either function. I will not use a notary who believes that their job is anything other than to ascertain identity and complete the appropriate form of declaration! in some cases the SS or the title company expects the notary to explain the documents but that is actually outside the definition of the definition of the notaries function buy the State of Ca. I hope that your E&O carrier is aware of the expanded function that you are performing because their exposure is greatly increased by your mission creep!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/27/08 2:31am
Msg #268293

Re: Mission Creep is the problem....

Wow, if you think I have "mission creep" then there's a big problem, Charles. The job of a notary is to certify signatures on documents. That's it. I'm well aware of that. I don't care about the content of a document except to know the general nature of it for the journal. It is not my position to make a judgement on the document maker or the signer. That's none of my business. My business is simply ascertaining that the signer is who he/she/they claim to be.

I would never dream of telling someone else how to do their job. Well, unless it is a clear issue that anyone one with reasonable sense would speak up. (Hey, crossing guard... shouldn't you be helping those kids cross the street instead of talking on your cell to your boyfriend and ignoring them as they cross without you?)

When it comes to the eldercare field, however, I do know what I'm talking about... and I clearly said that it is NOT a notary's job to ascertain competency. However we are given guidance about being able to communicate or determine if the signer has no idea what they're doing. Even a drunk signer can still sign if they do it willingly and can communicate well enough that they understand what they're doing. I speak from 5+ years with direct contact on the eldercare industry and constant guidance from elderlaw attorneys. I'm not just talking to talk. Determining mental competency is NOT an easy job, and even the best doctors get it wrong and can be fooled by their patients. A notary with no other training can only use his/her gut instinct as to the ability to communicate the task during the few minutes they have.

If you think that's considered "mission creep" than I'm just confused because the CA handbook clearly states, "When notarizing a signature on a document, a notary public must be able to communicate with their customer in order for the signer either to swear to or affirm the contents of the affidavit or to acknowledge the execution of the document."

Where do you get the idea that I'm overstepping bounds? I know there are plenty of others here who do play the loan police... but I know I don't. Some of those here do have real estate licenses, though. Some of them have other backgrounds that DO make them more knowledgeable about a topic. In the role of a notary, though... you're correct... they need to just certify the signature and do their job.

But, don't sell the office short. Certifying identity and signatures and helping to prevent fraud is a fairly simple job, but it's also extremely important. It can also be a major temptation to commit fraud, too, for some of the less moral or desperate out there... and we've all read the stories about them, too. In some cases it can also make you a target.

Its almost as if you're saying any idiot CAN do this job. While I tend to agree that it isn't exactly rocket fuel science, it is still important and not just anyone should be doing it.

Reply by notaryinmo on 10/27/08 12:56pm
Msg #268320

Re: Mission Creep is the problem....

Wonderful post Charles! When our office is called for any type of loan signing, we make sure that the signing service knows that our service mission states that we are NOT loan officers, real estate agents or attorneys - we will witness signatures with proper identification and make sure that all places in a loan document are signed or initialled by the borrowers.

We've been told be several signing services that it's a relief to hear that we know what our responsibility is. We do not step on the toes that are paying us, but if something isn't clear, we communicate with the agency before we meet with their client's borrower (whenever possible).

Reply by Gavina Franklin on 10/26/08 7:43pm
Msg #268269

I comp the 6 hours seminar and exam all in the same day with

no problem, same my husband and my friend.

Reply by GF_CA on 10/26/08 7:46pm
Msg #268271

Ops! Completed n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/27/08 1:06am
Msg #268290

Re: I comp the 6 hours seminar and exam all in the same day with

What do you mean by "no problem"? That you were able to pass the test? Is this your first time getting a notary commission? If so, after the one day class, do you now feel comfortable that you could handle most situations where you're asked to notarize a document? Somehow I have a feeling that you've missed the point. If I'm wrong, please clarify and set me straight. Thanks.