Posted by CF on 9/5/08 2:53pm
Msg #263288

Backdating question

Should a notary be concerned about the borrowers backdating documents OTHER than the notarized documents. Of course, I know that you CAN NOT backdate the notarized docs....and they would be notarized properly with the right date. But- what if the lender is saying that they can backdate other docs? Should the notary be concerned or just proceed and do my notarizations legally?

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 9/5/08 3:06pm
Msg #263289

I would have a problem with that your witnessing their signatures. What if later they say they were told to backdate the package and you were their witness? Your still an officer of the state. I don't care what state your in it's against the law to backdate loan papers. I would hate to see you get in trouble for a few bucks.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 9/5/08 3:10pm
Msg #263290

Did you ask them why they were backdating?

I would mention that I am dating today and that there may be questions why their docs dates differ from mine. Beyond that I would let the TC know that you questioned them about it and they stated
( blah, blah, blah) and you finished the assignment.

Reply by BP/WV on 9/5/08 3:12pm
Msg #263291

It is not my business what date the borrowers put on the paper as long as I notarize the document with the correct date.

A wise notary once said:

"Our is not to question why...only to let the ink dry"

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 3:17pm
Msg #263293

"A wise notary once said:

"Our is not to question why...only to let the ink dry"


Hmmmmm. Interesting. I got the third degree recently from a notary because I would not question how the LENDER WANTED THEIR DOCUMENTS signed.

Reply by BP/WV on 9/5/08 3:35pm
Msg #263298

This situation did happen to me once. The borrowers began signing and used an incorrect date. At first, I thought that they did it by mistake. I politely said: "Oh, today is the 5th". They replied with "we know" and kept signing. I used the correct date when I notarized it.

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 3:44pm
Msg #263300

"I used the correct date when I notarized it. "

Yep. Follow the law. All you can do. If the lender has other things they want done, so be it. As long as the notarizations are done correctly, thats my main concern.

Reply by Therese on 9/5/08 3:14pm
Msg #263292

I have seen this request in regards to the Broker docs that should or were given to the BO but never returned.

Reply by desktopfull on 9/5/08 6:50pm
Msg #263316

It violates the RESPA regulation Z

Also, the borrower is making a false statement on the documents that you are witnessing.

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 6:56pm
Msg #263317

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

"Also, the borrower is making a false statement on the documents that you are witnessing."


Could you please explain this statement further? Any broker docs I have ever seen do not call for a notarization, so what are you witnessing?

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 7:03pm
Msg #263319

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

"Could you please explain this statement further? Any broker docs I have ever seen do not call for a notarization, so what are you witnessing?"

Should have said, "any non- notarized docs in the package" not just broker docs, as the original question was posed.

Reply by desktopfull on 9/5/08 7:08pm
Msg #263320

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

Since part of the documents are being notarized with the correct signing date, then you are watching them deliberately backdate, which is making a false statement on the documents. That makes you a witness to the false statements, doesn't it? I really wouldn't want to get involved in the middle of something like that. The courts really dislike backdating of any kind concerning legal documents. For example: the note is dated 5/5/05 and the mortgage is dated 5/6/05. The HUD, the prepaid interest, TIL, IAF and the RTC, are all affected by the backdating. It would also allow the borrower's 3 years to rescind the loan because the Right to Cancel wasn't properly executed. This is the regulation Z violation.

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 7:25pm
Msg #263321

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

"That makes you a witness to the false statements, doesn't it?"

So I guess you are saying that if a borrower decided to put the wrong date on a document, he could sue me? That would be interesting.

Reply by desktopfull on 9/5/08 7:36pm
Msg #263322

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

No, that's not what I was saying. But if a dispute arose between the lender & borrower, you could be drug into the middle of the dispute. I don't know anywhere in the US that it's legal to backdate documents, especially legal documents, it's considered fraud. At least, your notarizing with the correct date, and can testify that the borrower knew they were signing the rest of the documents with the wrong date. JMO, not giving legal advise.

Reply by WDMD on 9/5/08 7:44pm
Msg #263324

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

"But if a dispute arose between the lender & borrower, you could be drug into the middle of the dispute.'

That would probably happen anyway, even if all the documents were executed perfectly. I don't see the point of why a lender would want different dates on different documents anyway. What purpose would that serve?

Reply by desktopfull on 9/5/08 7:56pm
Msg #263326

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

I don't know, but ask them to put the request in writing and they'll change their mind immediately and get you properly dated docs.

Reply by CF on 9/5/08 7:57pm
Msg #263327

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z

That makes sense that it would be a violation of something- I am not even going to begin to act like I know RESPA regulations. I was asked to backdate the whole package- well not in those exact words- but it was implied as such- that some of the docs could be dated for the orignal date- I stated that I could/would only notarize with the proper date- that it was illegal to backdate any notarizations. I put that "point blank" back to them in an email- and asked if they date the docs for the original date and the notarizations are done legally with a different date- is the lender going to accept? Well- it was put back to me to date everything the same- so to me- they accepted that I would not illegally backdate for them and that all dates would be dated for tomorrow.

This is a client that I have done numerous orders for.....and I am glad that they did not push it with me- they would have had to find another notary- at that point! In 4000+ signings I have only been asked 1 other time to backdate.....and I was shocked then as I was now.

We Notaries have a duty to prevail with what is legal for how we notarize something. Thanks for the input....I thought that it was an interesting spin on backdating. You never know in this business- everyday is something different.

Reply by Therese on 9/5/08 7:52pm
Msg #263325

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z ??????

The docs you are mentioning have never been included in the broker docs. Backdating those would clearly be a violation. Broker docs are usually the upfront disclosures and maybe the GF.

Reply by desktopfull on 9/5/08 8:01pm
Msg #263329

Re: It violates the RESPA regulation Z ??????

She didn't say it was broker docs, but all of the loan docs that weren't being notarized. That's what I was responding to with my answer.

Reply by Therese on 9/5/08 8:07pm
Msg #263330

Re:

Thought you were responding to me. Sometimes its unclear who is responding to who.

Reply by CF on 9/5/08 8:21pm
Msg #263331

It was not broker docs. It was a partial re-sign with a new

mortgage, RTC, TIL, HUD and some others.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 9/5/08 10:01pm
Msg #263347

You may be overthinking this

We're not the document police. The only backdating we need to be concerned with is what appears on our notarizations.

As long as I'm not required to sign as a witness (apart from notarization), it doesn't matter to me what date they put on the documents; all that matters to me is the part where it says "appeared before me", and that date will ALWAYS be the date I notarized. I have no idea why there would be a different date on other documents, nor (as a disinterested third-party) do I care. If it comes to a dispute later, my hands are clean - all I can testify to is the date in my notarial certificate, and unless I signed the disputed documents as a witness, what other obligation do I have? If my signature's not on the document, how do you prove I saw them sign it?

As for whether it's a RESPA violation - please cite the appropriate part of the law to show why you think so.