Posted by Jack Tri on 9/20/08 10:57pm
Msg #264876

California assembly bill 2454 hope this will pass

Would increase the fee notaries may charge for acknowledgments and jurats to 25.00 per signature.from 10.00

Reply by Michelle/AL on 9/20/08 11:10pm
Msg #264878

Good luck, Jack. That would be wonderful. It's a funny thing. The last car I purchased was when I resided in San Jose, CA. I remember being so ticked off when I had to pay a notary over $20 to notarize 1-2 forms for me. I felt as if I was being ripped off at the time (2004). Now that I'm a notary I want the fees to be increased (smile).

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/21/08 12:00am
Msg #264879

Where did you get your info? ...

Here is a link to a pdf file of AB2454 and it doesn't say anything about notary fees.

http://www.statesurge.com/bills/50034-ab2454-california

Reply by Notary/Guy on 9/21/08 12:20am
Msg #264880

Re: Where did you get your info? ...

NNA NotaryBulletin paper the bill has two parts

Reply by Notary/Guy on 9/21/08 12:29am
Msg #264881

Re: Where did you get your info? ...

http://www.statesurge.com/bills/50032-ab2452-california look at pdf dated 3/15/08

Reply by Jack Tri on 9/21/08 12:32am
Msg #264882

Re: Where did you get your info? ...

Section 8211 of the Government Code is amended to
read:
8211. Fees charged by a notary public for the following services
shall not exceed the fees prescribed by this section.:
(a) For taking an acknowledgment or proof of a deed, or other
instrument, to include the seal and the writing of the certificate,
the sum of ten twenty-five dollars ($10) ($25) for each signature
taken.
(b) For administering an oath or affirmation to one person and
executing the jurat, including the seal, the sum of ten twenty-five
dollars ($10) ($25).
(c) For all services rendered in connection with the taking of
any deposition, the sum of twenty fifty dollars ($20), ($50), and in
addition thereto, the sum of five fifteen dollars ($5) ($15) for
administering the oath to the witness and the sum of five fifteen
dollars ($5) ($15) for the certificate to the deposition.
(d) For every protest for the nonpayment of a promissory note
or for the nonpayment or nonacceptance of a bill of exchange,
draft, or check, the sum of ten twenty-five dollars ($10) ($25).

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/21/08 12:41am
Msg #264883

It's AB2452 not AB2454... no wonder...

no wonder I couldn't find it!

Thanks for the right link info.

Reply by Notary/Guy on 9/21/08 1:14am
Msg #264885

Re: It's AB2452 not AB2454... no wonder...

BarbaraL_CA looks like they Amended it and took out the notary pay rise

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/21/08 4:02am
Msg #264888

Bad news... it's already changed. *Details within*

The part about increased maximum fees was pulled before the bill passed. It was signed into law on July 3rd and goes into effect on 1/1/09.

You can read all the dirty details here:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/07-08/bill/asm/ab_2451-2500/ab_2452_bill_20080703_chaptered.html


Based on my reading of it, I can see that they added to the list of acceptable ID documents... I assume of course it still has to have all of the required ID elements to actually be usable, though (photos, signature, description).

" (F) An employee identification card issued by an agency or office
of the State of California, or by an agency or office of a city,
county, or city and county in this state."


They've also changed the subscribing witness rules a little bit.


It looks like they've clarified the process for what happens if a peace officer wants to take your journal. The notary must get a receipt for the journal and notify the SOS by certified mail within 10 days.

Reply by Kathy Fletcher on 9/21/08 8:40am
Msg #264898

Re: News on next year

A member of the committee told me that the fee structure was indeed pulled prior to passing. However, they were informed they could present it again next year for consideration. The committee does intend to do so.

Reply by MW/VA on 9/21/08 9:52am
Msg #264904

Am I the only one that thinks $25 is excessive? The fee here in VA is $5. My minimum fee for mobile notary work is $25 w/travel. I can't imagine the public needing to pay $25 per notarization, and think this will hurt the business. If it is NNA generated, that is interesting. They still show "recommended minimum fees" for certified NSA's of $65. My minimum fee is $100. I do understand that fees vary per area, considering cost of living varies so much per area.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/08 10:05am
Msg #264906

No, you're not the only one - when this was discussed

before I believe I posted that $25 was off the charts - not to mention CA gets paid "per signature" not "per notarization"...so a DOT with husband and wife signing would be $50 just in notary fees? That, IMO, is over the top...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/21/08 12:11pm
Msg #264909

Re: No, you're not the only one

No, I think $25 is too much as well and I'm glad the lawmakers got rid of it for now. That might make some of the other CA Notaries mad, but that's how I feel and I'll explain. The problem is that the general public doesn't fully understand what a notary actually does. In fact, they often have the entirely wrong idea. But no matter that, they all feel that $10 a signature is excessive. At $25, it would be an all out revolt. And let's not even get started on what the Loan Signers would start insisting on if they got that "pay raise". I think one of the biggest problems is that as public servants, Notaries aren't educating the public about the true value of their service. Until the public understands that, they aren't going to pay higher fees.

Going to $25 as a maximum is probably going to hurt the mobile notaries more than anything. Some of the copy shop and pack-n-ship shop notaries will probably love the extra business because they'll be able to keep their fees to $10...even $15 dollars a pop. They'll pull in the extra bargain business and it won't really hurt them at all.

Of course, as I've been going about it all, the one thing I've discovered is that a whole heck of a lot of notaries themselves don't really understand their job. It's no wonder the public doesn't want to pay for something if they don't know the value of the work.

I was at a Kinkos just this week to get some binding work done for a client and clear as day on the table not 5 feet away from me were an unattended notary stamp, journal and blank NNA ack form. Nobody was using them and nobody paid any attention. I was there for about 20 minutes and could have easily grabbed them and walked out of the store. Not that I would have, but it made me upset. As I was leaving, I pointed it out to the girl who checked me out. She said, "Oh those are mine. I keep them out because I have to stamp stuff all day long and our safe is upstairs. I don't want to go up there each time."

She has to "stamp stuff".

Nice.

And yes, when I got home I placed a call to the manager. But I think that just goes to show that some notaries don't really know what they're doing because they have to get their seals as part of their employment. They themselves don't really put a value on something their employers paid for.

So if the max fees DO go up, I really think it will force the mobile notaries, the GOOD notaries out of business and send the public to notaries like the one I spoke with at Kinkos.

I'm not saying that the $25 is overly excessive for a notarial act by a truly trustworthy notary who understands the significance of his/her job, but I think that to justify a fee that high should include the notary educating the signer about the importance of the act. Of course, I think that the CA exam should be a little more difficult, too... and raise the passing percentage from 70% to 85%. But then, that's just me.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/21/08 2:20pm
Msg #264912

Re: No, you're not the only one

I'm with you, Marian, and also spoke out against it the last time it was brought up here. I think you make good points. (BTW, I've seen the same thing with a journal on the counter at a UPS store. When I mentioned something about it to the (very young) guy I was talking to, he quickly shoved it into the bottom of the cabinet it was sitting on (that didn't have a lock...) and mentioned that he had just finished using it. Looked to me like he was shooting the breeze with another employee when I walked in. I'll at least give him points for realizing that it was wrong.)

Another problem that concerns me with this is that I think the notary field will again be swamped with people who want to become notaries because it looks like easy money (and it pretty much would be for some). Obviously, that's more than many people make per hour. We are just finally getting to a point where it seems the CA population is getting a little less enamored with jumping into loan signing and other notary work. Can you imagine how full advertising media would be with ads for notary training classes - and how people can get "rich" as a notary? "You, too, can make $200 an hour..." Oy Vey!!!

If the increase was, for example, to $12 per signature or *maybe* even $15, I might be more in favor. But this is talking about a 150% increase!! How can that possibly be justified? I also agree that the public would be in an uproar over this and I wouldn't blame them. This could actually be a financial hardship for many. Imagine $50 just to complete the form requesting a copy of a child's birth certificate for a lower income family? People are being bombarded with enough cost increases these days. I think we need to keep in mind that part of being a Notary Public is to be "public" servant. I don't think that means we give away our services, but they should be accessible - and at an affordable level - for the vast majority.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/21/08 5:42pm
Msg #264926

Re: No, you're not the only one

I agree with you, Janet. I didn't even think about the "flood" that it might cause with new advertising strategies. On, boy!

Reply by Mamie on 9/21/08 5:47pm
Msg #264927

Re: No, you're not the only one

I also am in agreement. I think the most it should go to would be $12. What I see as part of the problem with people not realizing the importance of a notarization is that bank and some realty offices were doing them for no charge. Now many of the banks are refusing because of liability and only do bank generated notarizations. Then like you said, the notaries in Kinko's, FedEx, and other places, don't place any value on themselves and their work, most treat it very cavalierly. I would love to see other states SOS review their own regulations and increase the fees all states can charge. I can't believe it when I see some can only charge $.50.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/21/08 1:00pm
Msg #264911

No, Marilyn. I feel $25 is excessive as well.

$10 seems about right to me. In Texas we can only charge $6.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/08 2:25pm
Msg #264913

We can charge up to $10 per cert in FL

not $10/signature as in CA and honestly?? - in general notary work the people I've dealt with don't want to pay THAT even if I DO give them a discount for multiple certs!! Can't imagine anyone would be willing to pay $25/signature..and if it's $25/cert even that, to me, is a stretch...but hey...Good Luck guys!!

Reply by Cheryl Anderson on 9/21/08 2:26pm
Msg #264914

I will find it interesting how people will market themselves

Charging $25 per signature would give a much greater bases for marketing...AND argument. For instance, we DON'T HAVE TO CHARGE THAT AMOUNT...We can charge nothing, if we choose to do so, however, with that gap, it will be interesting how the local notary (or across the country) will be charging to maintain their own business, in retrospect of the local "competition." A few dollars difference influences people's decisions to buy...and a $15 dollar cushion (for lack of a better word) may make competition a much more fierce reality.
"A lot of changes, this way comes...."

Reply by linda/ca on 9/21/08 2:41pm
Msg #264915

Re: I will find it interesting how people will market themselves

I live in Ca. and feel that $25.00 is too much. Interesting thing I am experiencing is that the last (2) calls I received for general notarizations asked me if I notarize for free........where is that nonsense coming from?? Upon reflection, maybe $25.00 a pop would give our service a perceived value....naw..$25.00 is excessive and I agree with, I believe it was Janet?; it would cause another stampede of "get rich quick" schemes and exploited individuals.

Reply by cassiewi on 9/21/08 4:27pm
Msg #264921

.50 cents in Wisconsin

You guys have it great at $10 IMO.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/21/08 5:20pm
Msg #264925

Been thinking that, too, Cassie.

Actually, I think $10 is high enough considering that most states have a Min. hourly wage of less than that figure. And 50 cents is just waaay too low.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/21/08 6:22pm
Msg #264930

$25 is too much. $10 is about right....maybe even $12, but certainly not $25. And yes, UPS Store and FedEx/Kinkos Notaries leave journals where any Joe could take it and run. I've seen it. I don't use them because of that.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/21/08 6:37pm
Msg #264931

Sounds like it may be a training issue with them. Or maybe their stores aren't properly equipped or designed to accomodate doing notary work, even though they advertise those services... Maybe THAT'S something our law makers should be focusing on, no? Hmmmm!!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/21/08 9:48pm
Msg #264945

It might be a training issue, but...

These people need to pass the same exam the rest of us do, right? They have the same handbook where it says, (at least in CA), "The journal shall be kept in a locked and secured area, under the direct and exclusive control of the notary. Failure to secure the journal shall be cause for the Secretary of State to take administrative action against the commission held by the notary public pursuant to Section 8214.1."

The wording for the seal is the same, "The seal shall be kept in a locked and secured area, under the direct and exclusive control of the notary. Failure to secure the seal shall be cause for the Secretary of State to take administrative action against the commission held by the notary public pursuant to Section 8214.1."

I don't know how difficult it would be to install a locked drawer or safe under the counter just for that very purpose. I mean, they keep cash somewhere...you'd think they'd have something similar for notary supplies.

To me, leaving out the notary seal and journal are more dangerous than leaving cash out for everyone to see.


But yeah... if the max rates go up, those places are going to keep the fees low to attract customers, and it could cause a lot of turmoil. I know not all of them are questionable, but we've all seen it and it's scary. That's kind of why I've felt the passing scores need to be 80-85% with more difficult questions. The test itself was really easy compared to sample tests from the training venues I looked at.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/23/08 3:35am
Msg #265024

Re: It might be a training issue, but...

I've often been on my soapbox claiming that the exam should be given on a different day from the classes. When the exam is given right after the class, the information is temporarily stored in short term memory just long enough to pass the test. Three days later, most of it is forgotten, never absorbed into long term memory. If they have to wait a few days, they may actually have to re-read the material and study a little bit. Then there's a much better chance of the information actually being retained, even if they cram for the exam.

I doubt anything will ever come of this, but I can dream...

Reply by RickG/CA on 9/21/08 10:01pm
Msg #264946

Also not in favor of the much talked about $25 per signature fee. However, every cloud has a silver lining...it would ease some of the burden of the SE tax!!! All in favor of keep greenbacks - say aye!?!?

Reply by MW/VA on 9/22/08 8:25am
Msg #264956

Since SE tax is a federal issue, why should one state receive such a huge advantage?

Reply by RickinVA on 9/22/08 10:55am
Msg #264962

Maybe: Since SE tax is 15%+, if you can exempt most of your income from it, it can
be a huge advantage. And, you still get to deduct mileage. 60 signings a year, 10
2 signature notarizations per = 1200 times $25 = $30,000.00 exempt from SE tax as
opposed to what we get in VA, which would be 1/10th or $3000. (The CA law calls for per sig,
we have per notarization)
Note: I am not a math wiz, so if those figures are incorrect, blame my math teacher! <g>
Rick

Reply by RickG/CA on 9/22/08 11:15am
Msg #264964

Looking at a larger picture. Why one state receives advantages over another - I don't know, I'm a notary public not a politican nor lobbyist. I do know that the largest and most powerful collections agency, affectionately known as the IRS, states that notary fees are exempt from SE tax. Even if the fees were to go up $1 or $2 per signature, that would put a significant dent into the amount of SE tax burden. At 5 or 10 signatures, it's not worth the time, however at well over 1,500 that's a big chunk to lop off of the amount subject to SE tax.

Please don't take my meaningless banter as gospel, note as interesting hearsay and research on your own.

www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040sse.pdf