Posted by Almaden Notary on 9/24/08 3:43pm
Msg #265194

Puzzling Request. What do you think?

I received a message from a loan company regarding a signing that was done February 21, 2008. She said the deed had been rejected by First American because the wording on the acknowledgment was wrong (their fault - not mine they said). Told me that First American is rejecting Deeds of Trust from as far back as 2005! She is FedExing a corrected acknowledgment for me to sign. The DOT has not been recorded....asked if borrowers knew...We try not to disturb them. I said they would be very disturbed if they knew their deed had not recorded for 7 months. Anyone else had this request?

Reply by GA/Atty on 9/24/08 3:46pm
Msg #265195

The borrower's shouldn't care - doesn't hurt them at all. n/m

Reply by sue_pa on 9/24/08 4:52pm
Msg #265207

It might

I've had these type requests for years. In PA, it's a big no no - there is no such thing as a "reacknowledgment".

One time I sic'd (?) the president of my state notary assoc. and an attorney from our SOS on First American. They screwed up a recording and contacted me several years later. I refused to send them an ack and told them I would be more than happy to meet with the borrowers again to have them reack to me and I'd notarize for the current date. It still took them several months to straighten it out. I always wondered if the lender knew they had an unsecured loan on a very expensive beach front home in the Carolinas. Why wasn't it recorded originally? Because the ack wasn't PA compliant and I attached a correctly worded one - they threw mine away. First Am actually told me "if I had done my job correctly the first time" none of this would be a problem. I had to explain to them that "their way" was wrong and if an underwriter looked, my notarization would have been flawed. That was then ... now I would state my case very politely, ONE time and that would be the end of my discussions.


Another time Ameriquest wanted me to go back and have borrowers "reacknowledge" to me and I was going to be permitted to use the current date - no squabbling abuot that. I called borrowers over a few days/weeks (can't remember) and they finally called me back - VERY irate. They had paid the loan off and weren't about to help correct anything.

I'm guessing it's also not permitted in most other states although it appears from reading these boards that people do it all the time. What if the borrowers have sold the property? What if they have paid this mortgage off? "Technically" it doesn't hurt them at all as you say - "practically" if something is amiss, it will be up to them to get whatever is wrong fixed.

Reply by CF on 9/24/08 3:48pm
Msg #265197

Well- first of all TC's do not "reject" things that is what the County Clerks Office does....so that does not sound right to me. If there needs to be a correction- then a new acknowledgement would need to be singed by the borrowers- as far as I am concerned. I guess the correction could come from the notarial block....but make sure that this is just not a blank new acknowledgement that you are stamping and that it is attached to the original documents. I would be cautious about this request. JMO

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 9/24/08 3:50pm
Msg #265198

Re Sounds like Backdating to me ? Big No No ! n/m

Reply by GA/Atty on 9/24/08 3:54pm
Msg #265200

I think she meant the title insurance co. First American n/m

Reply by Stamper_WI on 9/24/08 4:28pm
Msg #265202

I would think CA acknowledge ment wording is standard. I would be curious to know for sure what the error was. Make sure you are not just providing them with a blank acknowledgement. Know what it is attached to

Reply by SharonMN on 9/24/08 4:38pm
Msg #265203

Presumably you made sure the acknowledgment was worded properly for your state when you completed it - regardless of what was printed on the form - so this sounds fishy to me. Probably they are just cleaning up some old mess or lost the original ack. Borrowers can re-execute mortgage in front of a notary if it's that wrong.

Borrower should not care if the mortgage has been recorded or not - all that means is no public record of the lien on the home.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/24/08 4:47pm
Msg #265205

<<<....the wording on the acknowledgment was wrong (their fault - not mine they said)....>

While it's always helps if the notarial certificates are correct on loan documents, it is the Notary's responsibility to make sure the wording is compliant with their state and if not, to attach a compliant one. So the loan company taking the blame for the "wrong wording" on the acknowledgment is really of no consequence (unimportant).

Whenever a company claims something needs correcting, don't fill out a thing they send UNLESS they have FIRST faxed you a copy of the "wrong" document for your review. If they cannot or will not fax proof of the error (regardless of whose "fault" it is), then I wouldn't fulfill their request.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/24/08 4:51pm
Msg #265206

Excellent advice, LKT/CA. n/m

Reply by sue_pa on 9/24/08 4:54pm
Msg #265208

how can it be 'their fault'?

... the wording on the acknowledgment was wrong (their fault - not mine they said). ...

You're the notary, don't you know what goes in a notary block for your state?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/24/08 5:49pm
Msg #265213

"She is FedExing a corrected acknowledgment for me to sign"

I trust you told them that you would be happy to go out to the borrowers and have them acknowledge their signature again, provided the company sends you the deed so the borrowers can actually acknowledge it is their signature.

Reply by MW/VA on 9/24/08 6:15pm
Msg #265220

I have had a couple of requests for "re-signs" on DOT's that didn't record for several different reasons. In each case the borrower signed a new DOT & I notarized it. I'd be a little suspicious of just being asked to send a new ack. IMO it is not backdating when you are making a necessary correction to an original transaction where you witnessed the borrowers signature on the date in question. The borrower certainly wouldn't be upset that the DOT didn't record--it means their loan isn't secured on the property. This sort of thing has come up in bankruptcy proceedings from time to time when liens on property, cars, etc. never actually got recorded. It makes things interesting.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 9/24/08 8:39pm
Msg #265235

"IMO it is not backdating when you are making a necessary correction to an original transaction where you witnessed the borrowers signature on the date in question."

I used to think of it that way, but I've since realized that I was wrong. Even if your journal shows that Mr & Mrs Smith signed a DOT on that date, how do you know that the DOT you're being asked to "reacknowledge" today is the same one they signed last year?

You can take the original signed DOT back to the borrowers, have them acknowledge in your presence that they signed it, notarize their signatures with the current date, and the doc will record without a problem (assuming the notarial block is correctly worded this time). Why would the county clerk care whether the date on the doc is the same as the notarization date?

Reply by PAW on 9/24/08 7:38pm
Msg #265229

Simple solution, for Florida notaries

Pursuant to FSA 117.107(3),(7) and (8), once you “complete” the notarization and return it, the notary may not amend the certificate. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer. (Source: Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, 2001, pg 29.)

Reply by Maureen_nh on 9/24/08 8:28pm
Msg #265233

The only time I had anything at all like that it was a mortgage that had sat on the secondary market too long and the date was "stale" This was the explaination I was given anyway.
It was not mine originally.
I brought the whole mortage to the borrower to reacknowlege for a current date.
I would be very uncomfortable with this situation you are in..

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/24/08 9:16pm
Msg #265237

Not your fault?

As the notary, aren't you the one responsible for notarizing a document with the proper ack wording? I guess it depends on the state, but that was my gut reaction. You're in California, so you should know what the proper acknowledgment wording is.

I'm don't mean to sound nasty, but if the DOT was rejected because the ack wording was not compliant, it kind of *is* your fault...unless of course, the DOT was meant to be filed in another state. If it were meant for California, there's not much of an excuse.

It sounds like they are taking responsibility for it because they were the ones who printed the incorrect wording, so they just assume it's their fault.

In addition to the advice above, I suggest reviewing the CA handbook, pages 12-13, as well as Civil Code section 1189-a.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/25/08 12:20am
Msg #265259

Agreeing with others: See the original doc and ack!

Never, ever, send an "extra" notarized ack or jurat "just in case"! Don't ever send an ack or jurat that doesn't clearly state exactly which signature(s) on what document is/are being notarized! Both of these acts cry "Potential fraud!" loud and clear.

And disagreeing with some other people: If I originally acknowledge specific signatures on a specific document and later somebody decides that the ack wording does not fit the requirements of the state where the doc is to be recorded, I have no problem creating a new ack with the original date _as long as I am absolutely certain that the doc was properly exceuted before me in the first place._ Think about the ack wording (I'm paraphrasing here, folks, no quibbling over words!): "Before me ... free act and deed ... 25th day of September, 2007". I saw them sign on that date. My journal says that was the date. My papers in my file folder say it was that date (yes, I keep paper records of each and every signing; not the docs themselves, of course, but confirmations [duh!], payments, travel directions, and sometimes notes ["Use the back door.", "Yappy ankle-biter dog.", "He can't hear well."]). My Excel balance book says that was the date. I don't care what the underlying (acknowledged) document (mortgage DOT, etc.) date says. I care only that all of my records show that the signer(s) signed and (explicitly or implicitly) acknowledged on the date written on the original ack.

If you're going to demand a re-acknowledgement, what would you do if one or more of the signers were dead?r Hold a seance?r Say, "Sorry; they can't appear before me, so I can't acknowledge their signature."?r How about if dementia had set in?r What if the signer(s) refused to re-ack, as some people have had happen, when the loan had been paid off, for example?r (OK, if the signer refused to re-ack, then you'd kick it back to your hiring entity and move on. Not your problem. In the spirit of fair play, I'll give you that one.)

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 9/25/08 12:24am
Msg #265260

My first thought was that First American is going thru all the escrows they aquired when Financial title went belly up... maybe they are trying to make sense of some screwed up files.
However, you said in your post that THE LOAN COMPANY is telling you the deed was not acceptable to First American... Did you talk to First American? Do not sign anything, with out further research and proof. Based on what you posted, it does not add up. Have you checked the public records to see if it recorded back in Feb '08?

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/25/08 12:35am
Msg #265262

Good point, SheilaSJCA! Did original record? Hmmm. n/m