Posted by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 1:07pm
Msg #264166
Venting - LO override. (long)
Yesterday I had a signing that didn't go well. One of the borrowers had a driver's license with her maiden name only. When I asked her if she had any other means of Identification such as a passport she said no. Since the borrowers just moved into the neighborhood they couldn't produce any credible witnesses either. To make a very long story short I'll cut to the chase..
The borrower went to the local DMV to get her license updated with her maiden name. I was willing to come back later at no extra charge once the license was corrected.
The local DMV office told her that she would have to get her original Marriage certificate and go to the next town's DMV to get it updated. While in the process of doing this her LO at the bank called her and told her she didn't need to do it and wanted to meet both borrowers and me in his office at the bank.
At the bank, the LO said to me "we are going to do the loan here and if you feel uncomfortable with doing it we have another notary on the way that will do it."
My response of course was to say that I won't do it and that the notary coming in will be violating Florida Notary Law by conducting this signing without proper identification. His response was; "we're OK, we're good, we're taking care of it." At that I left.
(My guess right now is that he had a notary at the bank stamp the necessary documents. I'll check this in a couple of weeks when the mortgage gets recorded.)
So, as you can see, the LO simply ignored the law in order to close the loan. The TC (after I called them to report this situation) was concerned about losing their client the bank so went along with the LO. Situations like this frustrates the hell out of me because there's very little I can do about it. When there's no check and balance between the lender and the TC but rather collusion it helps take away some of the mystery of why the mortgage industry is in such bad shape.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/08 1:12pm
Msg #264168
How did Mrs. hold title? n/m
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 1:46pm
Msg #264171
Re: How did Mrs. hold title?
Hi Linda,
She held title in her married name.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 1:31pm
Msg #264169
Paul
First as the borrower had ID even though it had her maiden name on it you could not have used credible witnesses.
Second, if you read the Florida Governor's manual the issue of ID in maiden name has been dealt with.
I would have notarized according to the Governors manual, and I actually have certificates for those circumstances.
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 1:56pm
Msg #264172
Hi Sylvia,
Good to hear from you! If you were referring to pg 61 of the Manual you will note that the situation was actually in reverse. I could not notarize the certificates that had her married name on them without some ID that stated she was who she said she was. Again, no way of knowing she was the person whose name appeared in the documents.
If you look at the 1st paragraph regarding this situation on pg 61 you will see that the recommendation is to direct them to the local DMV. That's what I did.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 2:12pm
Msg #264173
No, you couldn't use the certificate as is.
OK - doc in married name of Jane Jones. ID in maiden name of Jane Smith.
I would have had her sign as Jane Smith NKA Jane Jones and attached a certificate that would read Jane Smith who represented me that she is now known as Jane Jones and has provided drivers license in the name of Jane Smith.
I would, of course, have let the title company know that this is the only legal way in Florida I could do this.
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Reply by Becca_FL on 9/13/08 2:49pm
Msg #264174
Exactly what I would have done and have done, Sylvia.
Paul, it sounds like you have lost a client by not knowing the laws that govern you as a Florida notary. I bet you won't do that again. Lesson learned.
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 3:00pm
Msg #264177
Becca, Check out my response to Sylvia. BTW - I do know the laws of FL are I believe that I interpret them correctly.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 3:42pm
Msg #264185
"the laws of FL "
Paul, remember that the Governor's Manual is a Reference manual. It is not Florida law.
For instance the Reference manual says that the name of the person whose signature you are notarizing is one of the elements of the certificate. This is something I follow.
However the Statutes state:
"(e) The name of the person whose signature is being notarized. It is presumed, absent such specific notation by the notary public, that notarization is to all signatures."
So it is not imperative to put it on the certificate. But if you don't it will be presumed that you are notarizing all signatures.
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 2:57pm
Msg #264176
I respectfully disagree with this. The Manual clearly states the reverse and is to be used when a person needs to sign a document in their "former" name. Paragraph 1 IMHO is the one to use which tells us to direct them to the local DMV.
Consider this; Jane Smith is unmarried and living in FL with John Jones who is married to Jane Jones in another state. The docs are showing John Jones and Jane Jones. John Jones wants to take out a cash back loan without his actual wife knowing it so he has Jane Smith pose as the married Jane Jones. How does she represent to you that she is NKA Jane Jones?
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 3:09pm
Msg #264178
If she is telling me that she is NKA Jane Jones, then she is representing to me that she is NKA Jane Jones. And I am not notarizing Jane Jones, I am notarizing Jane Smith who represents to me that she is NKA Jane Jones
Of course I have only been a Certified Notary Instructor in Florida for about 6 years so I could be wrong
One other thing, in your original post you said as they had just moved into the area credible witnesses were not available. Does that mean you would have been willing to use credible witnesses even though the situation doesn't apply according to Florida Statutes Chapter 117???
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 3:28pm
Msg #264179
Sylvia,
I respect you and your advice to much. I apologize if I offended you. You have been a mentor to me and many others on this forum for a long time. All I was trying to put across is how I interpret the section of the manual. The scenerio I put forth was the way I looked at the situation - no more, no less.
With regards to the credible witnesses, this never came up during the signing. Probably because in the back of my mind I knew I couldn't do it anyway. I put that in my original post just as part of the discussion without thinking it through. Should have known better!
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 3:53pm
Msg #264188
No, not offended in the least Paul.
And of course, you can refuse to notarize if you are in any way uncomfortable with the request, and obviously you were.
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Reply by Lee/AR on 9/13/08 3:31pm
Msg #264181
Know diddley about FL... but, boy,
I'd sure want to see SOMETHING more than what FL is apparently happy with. Maybe I'm missing something here, but can anyone explain to me in little words how IDing a person who claims to be 'somebody else' is OK? I realize the 'proof' rests with the signer... but ???? Heck, I must know 14 Patricia Somebody...each of whom could claim to be Patricia Somebodyelse. Seems to be a situation that's ripe for fraud. (Maybe I've been reading too many spy novels lately, too.)
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/08 3:35pm
Msg #264182
I think Paul's biggest concern here is not so much the
fact that her ID had her maiden name but that she had *NO* ID showing she is the person on the docs. His concern is, for all he knew, Mary Martin could be standing in front of him with Jane Smith's ID in hand and stating she is now known as Jane Jones. At least that's the way I read his subsequent posts.
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 3:38pm
Msg #264183
Re: I think Paul's biggest concern here is not so much the
Thank you Linda. That's exactly what I was trying to say but didn't do so well did I?
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Reply by MichiganAl on 9/13/08 4:09pm
Msg #264193
Jumping in where I don't belong
Florida discussion, I know. But....She has her marriage certificate according to the original post. So, her i.d. has her maiden name, Jane Smith, the marriage certificate shows that Jane Smith got married to John Doe. Docs say Jane Doe. Isn't that good enough to handle it exactly as Sylvia states?
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Reply by DebbieT on 9/13/08 4:40pm
Msg #264194
Re: Jumping in where I don't belong
Yes Sylvia had the best way to handle it. That being said I also feel that if he was in that situation where he was not comfortable with doing the signing due to the circumstances I would rather someone than to go ahead and risk doing it incorrectly. I would rather walk away from the situation than to take the risk. That is what is good about this site is that you learn from the veterans such as Sylvia, Paw, Brenda and Becca etc. The stupid question is the one that you dont ask. 
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Reply by DebbieT on 9/13/08 4:44pm
Msg #264195
Re: Jumping in where I don't belong
Typing to fast .I would rather someone not do it if they were not comfortable than to go ahead and risk doing it incorrectly.
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Reply by Lee/AR on 9/13/08 5:06pm
Msg #264196
Nope, Al, Orig. Post said she did NOT have any other ID and
I don't belong in this either, but I find it a very interesting & puzzling discussion.
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Reply by SReis on 9/13/08 5:29pm
Msg #264199
Re: Nope, Al, Orig. Post said she did NOT have any other ID and
I don't really belong in the conversation either BUT I've actually been presented w/this exact same scenario. I had the borrower go to the DMV to have id updated & then proceeded w/closing. Title didn't have any issue w/it either. I agree w/some other posters that if FL law does allow this type of id'ing it is ripe for fraud. I wonder too what title would think if the docs were returned w/the NKA.
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Reply by Demore on 9/13/08 11:20pm
Msg #264209
Re: Nope, Al, Orig. Post said she did NOT have any other ID and
Interesting process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOL
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Reply by PAW on 9/14/08 7:39am
Msg #264214
The FL statutes are very clear about ID
Many of you are losing sight of the primary rule in identifying the signer: satisfactory evidence. Even though the FL manual provides a guideline how to handle a mismatch of a name on the required ID to the name as shown on the document, the notary is still required to properly identify the signer. "... 'Satisfactory evidence' means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person whose signature is to be notarized is not the person he or she claims to be and any one of the following ..."
Since there has always been a discrepancy in names, especially for women, between their legal use and their common use, the State of Florida has provided us a way to overcome the discrepancy with the use of 'representative capacity'. This allows us to use an AKA/NKA/FKA and even the WTTA/WATA form within the notary certificate. This does not remove the requirement of positively identifying the signer. Florida requires that when a notary certificate is completed for an acknowledgment or jurat, that the form of ID used as primary evidence be shown in the certificate. Additionally, the SOS has stated that the notary should include, in the certificate, any special circumstances surrounding the signing. The notary still identifies the signer by their primary ID but should also ensure that the 'represented' name is also collaborated by supplemental documentation. The SOS and manual both recommend the best procedure is to obtain valid ID (driver's license, state ID card, passport, etc.) in the same name as the document, but it is not required if acceptable by the author and/or recipient of the document.
Therefore, in the case where the ID is in the persons maiden name, but the document is in their married name, the notary IDs the signer according to their primary (relied upon) ID as authorized by statute, and then allows the signer to state that they are AKA the name as shown on the documents, which is supported by some other forms of documentation such that the notary is satisfied that the person is who they say they are. This is fraud prevention and it begins with the notary. The form offered in the manual is an example as:
"... by MARY SMITH who represented to me that she was formerly known as MARY JONES and provided a DRIVER'S LICENSE in the name of MARY SMITH as identification ..."
This example can be extrapolated into other forms by changing the "formerly known as" to "also known as" and "now known as". These other forms have been accepted without any problems and can be found on many recorded documents as well as literally thousands of unrecorded documents held by a document custodian.
It must also be stated that some lenders and title companies will not allow the use of a "representative" notary certificate. In these situations, the primary ID must match (with minor acceptable variations) the name on the documents. Some lenders/title companies will prepare the documents such that both names will appear on the signature line (i.e. Jane Doe NKA Jane Smith), but the **notary** is not obligated to ensure that the name typed on the document matches the ID, only the name as shown in the notary certificate must match.
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Reply by Paul Kelley on 9/14/08 10:00am
Msg #264219
Re: The FL statutes are very clear about ID
>>> The notary still identifies the signer by their primary ID but should also ensure that the 'represented' name is also collaborated by supplemental documentation. The SOS and manual both recommend the best procedure is to obtain valid ID (driver's license, state ID card, passport, etc.) in the same name as the document, but it is not required if acceptable by the author and/or recipient of the document.<<<<<
Paul, thank you for your input on this. In this particular case she did not present to me any supplemental documentation to ID herself in the "represented" capacity. I followed the manual by suggesting she get her license updated.
With regards to using AKA, FKA, & NKA we all have used these at times but at the behest of the TC. I wouldn't decide on my own which to use. Your following statement is more to the point and what I believe the Lender/TC should have done in this case:
>>>>Some lenders/title companies will prepare the documents such that both names will appear on the signature line (i.e. Jane Doe NKA Jane Smith), but the **notary** is not obligated to ensure that the name typed on the document matches the ID, only the name as shown in the notary certificate must match. <<<<.
Had the documents been prepared in this manner there wouldn't have been any problem.
I do want to mention here that after reading your input I understand more clearly what Sylvia was trying to tell me. I also believe as I stated above, that the responsibility for using a FKA, NKA or AKA rest with the Lender/TC and not the notary. Again, in this case, it wouldn't have mattered because she couldn't ID herself with satisfactory evidence in the "represented" capacity.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/08 11:54am
Msg #264221
Re: The FL statutes are very clear about ID
"I understand more clearly what Sylvia was trying to tell me."
PAW always explains things better than I do (Of course at his great age he has had more practice - running away before PAW comes after me!!!!!!!)
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 5:28pm
Msg #264198
Something else that bothers me<g>
"The local DMV office told her that she would have to get her original Marriage certificate and go to the next town's DMV to get it updated"
Why on earth would she have to go to the next town's DMV to get her drivers license updated. They are state issued drivers licenses not town,city or county issued.
I know not a question for a notary but.......
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 5:46pm
Msg #264201
Re: Something else that bothers me<g>
Sylvia,
The only reason I can think off is the local office closes sooner than the one in the next town. Don't really know but that's what the borrowers told me they had to do. BTW - when they went to the local office they only had a "copy" of their marriage license not the original which is required. That meant they had to go home first, get the original, and proceed to the next town's DMV.
I also believe they complained to the LO about this and that's when he made the decision to do the closing at his office.
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Reply by Paul2_FL on 9/13/08 6:31pm
Msg #264203
Like to wrap this up....
Summation:
1 - The LO knew well in advance of this closing that there was a problem with her ID yet made no effort to get the docs corrected.
2 - After contacting the TC about the problem and not getting any feedback such as adding NKA certificates to the documents as Sylvia suggested I believe the protocol I used by suggesting to the borrowers to get the license updated was the right one. Some of you disagree and that's OK - we won't always see eye to eye on everything.
3 - I don't believe I lost this client as someone suggested earlier because I had a long conversation with the TC after leaving the bank and they agreed with me. However, only time will tell...
4 - I'm comfortable with the decision I made.
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Reply by davidK/CA on 9/13/08 6:39pm
Msg #264204
All I can say is I'm glad I'm in CA...
where the last name on the ID can't be interpreted to be something else completely different. If it says "Jones" then you can't prove you are "Smith" with that particular piece of ID.
Can you imagine what some TSA agent would say if she were trying to get on an airplane with Jones's ID and a ticket in the name of Smith? I don't think it would work so easily.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/08 7:16pm
Msg #264205
Actually, they're state DL's issued by the county... n/m
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 8:00pm
Msg #264206
Re: Actually, they're state DL's issued by the county...
Here the DMV's are state offices. Run by the Department of Safety and Motor vehicles.
Not issued by the county!
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/13/08 8:02pm
Msg #264207
Re: Actually, they're state DL's issued by the county... oop
Should be Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/08 8:35pm
Msg #264208
You're right..my bad... n/m
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/14/08 1:36am
Msg #264210
What I don't get, is why the LO asked you to come to his office if he had already asked another notary to come there, too. Why couldn't he have covered that with you over the phone and save you a trip. I think I would have been considerably less than thrilled with that!
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Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 9/14/08 2:45am
Msg #264211
I think I would have felt the same way as Paul. Leary of the situation. At least produce a social security card and that would have at least matched the name on her DL and the social on the docs. If I am reading all of this correctly that is. It is way late and i'm not at full capacity atm.
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Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/14/08 5:31am
Msg #264213
Way interesting ...
I completely agree with you, Paul - regardless of the technicalities of IF this could've possibly been done, and by what procedures. This is just an accident looking for a place to happen, IMHO.
I think we NSA's might be a little too isolated from the bigger picture - that fraud DOES happen, DOES happen often enough, and does NOT usually greet you at the door with a nametag that says "HI, MY NAME IS FRAUD".
This scenario - a woman stating she is the spouse but lacking proof of that beyond a copy of something that has little to go on as it is - is just too ripe. Were it me, the risk I'd perceive would be just not worth it.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/08 11:59am
Msg #264222
Re: Way interesting ...
Florida is strange on some things.
For years my drivers license had my maiden name for my middle name, they wouldn't put my middle name on the license, says it had to be my maiden name. So, signing documents that had to have my signature notarized would often have caused a problem if my middle name was on the documents.
Only in the last few years have they changed this. I got a letter in the mail a few years ago that I could now have my middle name on my license instead of my maiden name. I just had to show proof. So, went in with my naturalization certificate (this was the only official document I had with my middle name on it) and had my license changed.
But I still come across signers who still have their maiden name on the license as their middle name.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/14/08 12:19pm
Msg #264223
Re: Way interesting ...
The majority of the women I deal with have their maiden name as their middle name, and they've all told me "DMV told me" or "DMV suggested it and said I could"...
I disagree with this practice - the middle name on my birth certificate is my middle name, not my maiden name or my previous married name...if the applicant can provide supporting documentation for the middle name (and you have to provide a birth certificate when first applying) then that's what should be used - I feel DMV is out of line to suggest otherwise. MHO
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/08 12:37pm
Msg #264225
Re: Way interesting ...
I got my Florida drivers license in 1973 and didn't have the choice then.
Some women that got their DL's years ago don't realize they can now have it changed to reflect their correct middle name.
I have no idea why they would only use the maiden name as middle name, but am glad it changed.
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Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/08 3:43pm
Msg #264233
Re: Way interesting ...
"I have no idea why they would only use the maiden name as middle name,...."
Because that was the way it was always done! Ask Emily Post - also shows a woman is property, chattel, of man (husband, father).
Do not shoot the messenger...I am only giving historical method...no opinion given here.
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Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/14/08 4:26pm
Msg #264234
Re: Way interesting ...
Thanks Julie.
Nah - I won't shoot you.
But "we've come a long way baby" since those days
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Reply by rengel/CA on 9/14/08 6:48pm
Msg #264239
My reason...
is that I was known in the automotive industry here under my maiden name. My first husband was also well known in the automotive industry. So, when we married and started out own automotive business, it made sense to me to keep my maiden name as my middle name and take his last name as mine. I never got into the hyphentated last name thing, it just wasn't for me.
I then had quite a dilema when I got married the second time as it felt funny giving up my first husband's name (he passed away) but wanted to take my new husband's name. But the two last names did not flow very well. So I decided to make a fresh start and keep my maiden name as my middle name and take my new hubby' s last name.
To make a short story long - : )
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Reply by MonicaFL on 9/15/08 10:11am
Msg #264258
Re: Way interesting ...
My middle name was always on all documents HOWEVER when my husband died, the Government decided that my maiden name was to be on all documents regarding my VA compensation, anything to do with the kids' eligibility for anything, etc. So, knowing how the government can get everything screwed up so easily, and how hard it is to make them understand ANYTHING, it was to my advantage to have everything else show my name with my maiden name as my middle name. I even changed my social security card and my passport. The only documentation that is left showing my actual middle name is my son's checking account (he has always had me on it). Now if something happens to him, then I guess I will have to start from scratch in order to identify myself. Oh what a world we live in.
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Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 9/14/08 8:04pm
Msg #264242
Re: Way interesting ...
***also shows a woman is property, chattel, of man (husband, father).***
Wives have never been regarded as property in Western jurisprudence. Their rights were limited, and early on they were not permitted to hold property; control of the property was vested in the husband upon marriage. Conversely, when a man married a woman, HE incurred a lifetime support obligation regardless of what kind of wife she was, what services she provided to the family or whether she provided any at all, and even whether the two remained husband and wife.
The restrictions on property ownership disappeared long ago. The support obligation of the husband, on the other hand, continues in many jurisdictions in one form or another to this day.
Discrimination is often not a one-way street, something women in particular find difficult to accept.
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