Posted by DD/OR on 4/24/09 9:18am
Msg #286132

Abuse by Client

I was wondering if any notary here was ever abused by a client (borrower). What do you do about it? Do you walk out? I was severely abused and wanted to walk out but I didn't. He called me names. He was mad because I didn't discuss the terms of the loan or answer some questions about the loan. On the confirmation, I was advised by the company that hired me to not discuss any part of the loan and refer him to his LO, which I did. He wasn't happy with that and he continued to abuse me. I'm keeping track of abusive clients names and addresses to make sure that I don't go there again. What are you all doing pertaining to this kind of problem? I'm sure some of you must have been abused sometime in your career. Thanks.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/24/09 9:35am
Msg #286135

eveyone has their own tolerance level as to what they can and are willing accept.

Reply by pleasantonCA on 4/24/09 10:48am
Msg #286147

Be sure to have a written notation in your journal, and definitely let the hiring party know. There may have be a reason the request was for questions to be answered by the loan officer.

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/24/09 11:05am
Msg #286150

I my experience, when they warn you in advance to just say "sign here" and nothing more the Broker is usually trying to disguise a bad loan containing lots of money for the Broker, excessive Lender and Title fees and above normal interest rates.

I was asked to do a signing a while back where I was told "don't point out the interest rate on the note" to the borrower. Are you kidding me? What happened to the NSA's responsibility to confirm willingness and understanding? "Oh, that's not necessary" I'm told, "the borrower knows all the terms and signing the papers is just a formality". So would losing my commission and going to jail also be just a "formality"?

Reply by HKB on 4/24/09 11:58am
Msg #286172

Thank God I have never had this experience yet...... but would love to read how people have handled the situation .... just in case.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/24/09 12:46pm
Msg #286186

You aren't going too "lose your commission and go to jail"

As a notary you have no responsibility to even know where the APR is: check you handbook. As a document signing person (you are not an agent either, you have agency to anyone) you accept your assignment as an independent contractor of whoever pays the fee and as such if you have any responsibility it is to the fee payer. Mission creep seems to be a major problem in this business and I screen for it when I interview a new contractor. Mission creep can also cause you problems since your E&O may not cover it, your E&O covers your acts as a notary only. So I would not expose myself to personal liability by assuming too much personal responsibility. Now I know that there are a few who disagree with me regarding this but they are not licensed to transact the business of real estate or of insurance in California as I am. So watch the mission creep, you extend at your own peril. DISCLAIMER: My comments are limited to my practice of the the business of real estate and insurance as allowed by my applicable licenses and the laws of the State of California, I am not an attorney. For legal advice please discuss these issues with a member of he State Bar.

Reply by Pat/IL on 4/24/09 2:00pm
Msg #286205

Re: You aren't going too "lose your commission and go to jail"

I'm not sure what exactly the hiring party meant by 'discussing' the loan terms'. If they meant offering an opinion, there are certainly ways to decline without inviting abuse from the borrower. If they meant that you should assist the broker in keeping the borrower in the dark about the terms of the loan, I would have declined the job in the first place.

If you do take the job with such instructions, simply telling the borrower that you have been instructed to refer all questions in regards to loan terms to the broker would probably do the trick in most cases. There may be a good reason why the request was made. In the future, contacting the hiring party for clarification might help.

I guess I'm one of the few who disagree with Charles. First, in that the signing agent's can reasonable be construed as that of an agent when: S/he is performing, on behalf of the title company, a part of the process that will ultimately bind the title company in a contract with the insured. I see the signing agent (I am comfortable enough with the term) as an extension of the title company in these common situations. And, since the title company's primary responsibility is to the insured, so then is the signing agent's.

This is my perspective as an employee of a title agent - neither in OR nor CA. And, it is true that I don't hold a real estate license or a casualty insurance license in California. But, really, I don't see how a real estate or casualty insurance license adds any credibility to the argument. Personally, I would have gone with the mortgage broker experience. The mortgage brokers I know are far more familiar with the title insurance process than are the real estate agents. The real estate agents around here pretty much jibber jabber during the closing, waiting for their checks.

Reply by Gary_CA on 4/24/09 12:06pm
Msg #286175

Don't be a frog in a pot.

You know the old story...if you toss a frog into boiling water he'll jump out but if you slowly heat up the water he'll boil to death. I always wanted to test that but knew better than to even ask my mom...

Whatever your level of tolerance is it was violated. When you want to walk out, WALK OUT.

Allowing someone to step over your boundaries like that is a good way to get hurt.

"I was severely abused and wanted to walk out but didn't" is not a good formula. When your threshold has been crossed, LEAVE. When you have to argue with yourself about whether or not he's crossed the line, you're close enough, LEAVE.

Better luck next time.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/24/09 12:49pm
Msg #286187

Re: Don't be a frog in a pot. Agree wth Gary 100%...

When that little voice in your head suggests you leave I suggest you listen to it and run. There are many stuations where you really should go wth your "gut feel" and most old cops and soldiers will tell you it has saved thei bacon in many situations: that's how they ot to be old.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/24/09 1:09pm
Msg #286195

If you feel you're being abused, you need to leave. We are just the "messenger" and sometimes people are pretty upset with their LO & the process. Don't let them take that out on you. Safety is always #1, and you need to trust your gut.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/24/09 1:30pm
Msg #286201

Some concerns I have

You said you're keeping track of abusive borrowers. That would tend to mean it's happened more than once, anyway. You might try amicably setting the ground rules before you start. A simple 'any questions you have should be directed to your LO'... or words to that effect. That sets the tone from the get-go and would go a long way towards letting them know you don't discuss things that rightfully should be directed to the Lender/LO.

Reply by doglover/CA on 4/25/09 1:28am
Msg #286273

Re: Some concerns I have

If it has happened more than once, then you a re probably rubbing the borrowers the wrong way.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/24/09 4:12pm
Msg #286225

Lee

<<<I'm keeping track of abusive clients>>>

Research this poster's previous threads.
You'll see a pattern there.

Reply by jba/fl on 4/24/09 4:28pm
Msg #286227

Saw that ere your post. Agree, pattern. n/m

Reply by doglover/CA on 4/25/09 12:36am
Msg #286268

Re: Lee

Yeah, read thread #262938.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/24/09 6:22pm
Msg #286234

<<<I was wondering if any notary here was ever abused by a client (borrower). What do you do about it? Do you walk out? I'm sure some of you must have been abused sometime in your career.>>>

Nope...being abused is voluntary, if you continue to sit there and listen to borrower's rancor. If you leave, you cannot be abused.

<<<He was mad because I didn't discuss the terms of the loan or answer some questions about the loan.>>>

If borrowers starts asking a lot of *Why* questions.........."Why are the closing fees $XXXX when they told me it would be $XXXX ? OR "They said I wouldn't be charged for this but I see they charged me anyway." Rather than "refer" them to the loan officer, I usually say something like, "Your loan officer would have this information **let's get him/her on the phone**, do you have their number?" Establish your role at the beginning, especially letting borrower know that you are an independent contractor (and what that means).

<<<On the confirmation, I was advised by the company that hired me to not discuss any part of the loan and refer him to his LO, which I did.>>>

They all say that, at least all the confirmations I get. It doesn't mean you cannot point out the printed facts. I take that to mean I am not to give an opinion on the loan terms, type of loan, whether borrower got a good deal, etc.

<<<What are you all doing pertaining to this kind of problem?>>>

The only thing a Notary can do when they are disrespected, is gather their things and walk out. That's about it.

Reply by HB/CA on 4/24/09 11:25pm
Msg #286259

I'm sorry you had to put up with that. When I get an assignment and call the borrower to confirm I have a series of questions I always ask. One is, "Have you discussed your loan with your loan officer or real estate agent, and are you familiar with the terms of your loan?" If the answer is 'no', I tell them to contact their loan officer right away to familiarize themselves with what they will be entering into, and make sure he/she is available by phone during the signing. When I contact the signing company and let them know that I have confirmed the appointment, I also inform them that the borrower claimed to be unfamiliar with their loan. Luckily I've always had pleasant clients. The few times they were angry, they were angry with the loan officer or the lender because numbers were different from what they had originally agreed to. I just sit quietly as the borrowers chew out their loan officer instead of me.

Reply by doglover/CA on 4/25/09 12:23am
Msg #286264

I had a borrower speak with the loan office regarding a document he did not understand and the loan officer turned on me and told me I was not doing my job of explaining the document to him. She was very condescending and told me I seemed to not know my stuff, trying to convince me I was an incompetent signing agent. So you can see, you can also experience abuse from the folks on the lender side.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/25/09 12:09am
Msg #286262

"I'm keeping track of abusive clients names and addresses to make sure that I don't go there again. "

If you have to start keeping a list of names and addresses of the people who verbally abuse you, there's some other problem here because this is not normal behavior. Could it happen once or twice? Sure, but I've never experienced it and it doesn't sound like too many others here have either. If you've reached a point where you're keeping a list, maybe you need to take a closer look at the way you present yourself to the BO...

Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/25/09 12:27am
Msg #286266

"If you have to start keeping a list of names and addresses of the people who verbally abuse you, there's some other problem here because this is not normal behavior. Could it happen once or twice? Sure, but I've never experienced it and it doesn't sound like too many others here have either. If you've reached a point where you're keeping a list, maybe you need to take a closer look at the way you present yourself to the BO..."

Agree 100% Mike. This is not normal behavior to keep a list of abusive borrowers. The day I start keeping a list of abusive borrowers is the day I quit. In 4 years I have had 1 of what I would call an abusive borrower and it was a lady not a man. I've had mad borrowers, but not at me. They get darn mad and I can sympathize with them. I know they aren't mad at me and they know its not my fault. I let them vent if they need too. Its not directed at me. Just my .02

Reply by MichiganAl on 4/25/09 2:10am
Msg #286274

Over 6000 closings, never happened once

I think that is one of the differences between approaching a signing as a point and sign notary (I can't answer any questions, I'm just here to get you to sign on the line) and someone who approaches a closing with confidence, controls the process, understands the docs, knows how to go over all the terms, realizes that there are plenty of questions that we can answer or show them where to find the answer, and how to tactfully respond to the questions that you really can't answer. I really don't understand the "I can't answer any questions" thing. If I was the borrower, that would tick me off. I can answer 99% of the questions that come up with my finger. I can show them everything they need to see and still follow the no discussion directive (which I think was taken a bit too literally). "Here's your interest rate, here are your mortgage fees, here's your monthly payment, here's where it says you don't have a prepayment penalty" isn't discussing loan terms in my opinion. It's pointing out the facts.

The second I sense someone is beginning to get confrontational I take control in a very confident, positive way. I don't see it as much different from dealing with a child who starts to become unruly or wants to test boundaries. I don't get angry, I don't react emotionally, I don't get rattled. They can immediately tell that they're not going to run all over me and they're not going to draw me in. Call me crazy, but I sort of like when someone's got a chip on their shoulder. I consider it a fun challenge to turn them around. Had one yesterday. She was ticked off at the l.o. and ticked off at the lender. She didn't care that I didn't work for the lender. She gave me an earful the second she sat down. By the end of the signing I was her best bud. Best closing I had this week.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/25/09 8:12am
Msg #286282

Re: Abuse by Client...I've had one....

and the guy was a minister!! He wouldn't allow me to discuss his "wife's" ID with her (names didn't match - (Shirley on docs, Shelley on ID)....he got angry when I tried to discuss alternate ID's with her ... very pompous and "I'm in charge here" type of person....I didn't get the chance to pick up my toys and leave - he canceled the signing and said "let me show you the door"... the company said they'd had a lot of problems with him - I suggested they might want to send a male signing agent out if it was rescheduled as my husband had been with me as a witness and the Rev. had no problem with my husband but wanted nothing to do with me.

You meet all kinds in this business..