Posted by SReis on 4/14/09 7:05pm
Msg #284984

Being sued

I'm being sued!!!! The person claims that he was part of a Foreclosure Rescue Scam & I just happened to be the lucky person to notarize his paperwork. He claims that I & others (inc. signing service, escrow, bank & other individuals) conspired to get his house from him. He also claims that I, individually, was negligent for not explaining the legal ramifications of the documents to him. While I think I have the law behind me, this is still a very frustrating & scary experience. Has anyone else out there ever been sued for their work as a signing agent?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/14/09 7:07pm
Msg #284985

Oh no...I am so sorry to hear this is happening to you!!

I have nothing more to offer than that...I am really so sorry...

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/14/09 7:43pm
Msg #284991

Re: Oh no...I am so sorry to hear this is happening to you!!

I got dragged into one as a real estate agent once. VOC's came up in their new well. I was dismissed (or what ever you call it) right away.Turns out the liability rested with the county contaminating water tables. Also illegal dumping of VOC's by local factories on a farmers back fields.
My E&0 company gave me an attorney and I met with him once. He actually showed up with aerial photo's, old ones, from the DNR of the roads with the factory honey wagons on them!
In you case, you sound ok as you are not allowed to give legal advise and your role is as a neutral 3rd party. I am only realted to attorneys most of whom are dead. So that is just my opinion.

Reply by dickb/wi on 4/14/09 7:37pm
Msg #284988

i think it may be because when they sue they reach out as...

far as they can in order to catch some one with deep pockets to come up with some cash.... also you are not an atty so how could you interpret the legal ramifications?.....you were there as a witness and a notary.....that is the position that i would take......jmho



i am not an atty and....blah blah blah....

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/09 7:38pm
Msg #284989

<<< He also claims that I, individually, was negligent for not explaining the legal ramifications of the documents to him.>>>

I'm sorry too that this is happening to you but I don't believe this malcontented client has a leg to stand on. You were hired by said company for the purposes of signing agent and notary roles - which means you pointed out the printed facts of the documents and notarized his signature. I'll assume he signed of his own free will and not under duress. Even if you are an attorney...you weren't hired as *his* attorney (were you?) and had no duty to explain anything. I also believe said malcontented client had opportunities to have his paperwork reviewed by anyone he chose BEFORE the signing appointment. Unless you had knowledge that the other individuals were colluding to separate Mr. malcontent from his property, you should be absolved of such allegations. Don't be afraid.

I am not an attorney....and my opinion is only based on the info from your original post.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/14/09 7:46pm
Msg #284992

First--breathe. The person's lawyer is just throwing 'it' at everyone and you should be OK as notaries don't explain the legal ramifications to people--that's what the person's hired lawyer does (and where was s/he when the person was signing this stuff???)

But, do keep us informed as this moves along because it doesn't happen very often and it is something we all worry about. I'm sorry that this happens to anyone because it shouldn't.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/14/09 7:53pm
Msg #284996

You are NOT at fault! Don't worry overly. GOOD LUCK!!! n/m

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/14/09 9:16pm
Msg #285029

Let's remember the context.

Of course being sued is serious! It was not my intention to make light of the situation. Anyone who is sued needs to respond immediately. My concern was that the Notary being sued was in a state of panic.

As others have said, attorneys put every person's name and company name in a suit in hopes of collecting maximum damage from anyone and everyone. It makes sense that the Notary was included. The judge will _likely_ disconnect the Notary Public from the suit in short order. If not, then it is up to the Notaty Public to get proper defense post haste. That's why we carry Errors and Omissions insurance!

At _every single closing_ I explain that I am a Notary Public, not an attorney, and cannot give legal advice. Borrowers are always encouraged to call their loan officers with questions.

Notary Signing Agents who _explain_ documents and offer legal opinions deserve what they get. Unless one is licensed to practice law, one just identifies signers, points to information clearly printed in the documents, and notarizes the signers' signatures. No speculation. No opinions.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/15/09 7:21am
Msg #285082

disagree w/2 of your points

...The judge will _likely_ disconnect the Notary Public from the suit in short order....

Unfortunately, NOTHING is going to happen in short order and NOTHING is going to happen without considerable, time, effort and money on her behalf. This is a law suit and someone files something and waits for a response ... then someone else files something and waits for a response ... then someone asks the judge/arbitrator something and everyone waits ... I worked in a law office for 28 years and short order has nothing to do with the law.

I guess this next part was in one of your other posts: In PA I can refuse to notarize anything for anyone for any reason or for no reason. It's Wednesday and it's raining and I don't like your rain slicker because it doesn't have little duckies on it - get out of my office. You hand me a document on pink paper and I hate pink - get out of my office. Any reason or no reason in PA is grounds for refusal.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/14/09 7:58pm
Msg #284997

I am, as usual, amazed

at the cavalier attitudes. "Don't be afraid?" I think you should be VERY afraid. It doesn't matter if you did or didn't do anything wrong. You have been sued. You must now defend yourself and that takes time and money. If this guy becomes your local 'cause' and some organization steps in to 'assist' this poor soul, this could become VERY ugly for everyone involved.

do you have signing agent insurance? Does your attorney E&O cover this? Do you tell people you are a lawyer? (I realize you don't represent the individuals but if they know you are a lawyer, they sure don't know you don't represent them)

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/14/09 8:11pm
Msg #285005

I agree with Sue...this is not to be taken lightly

and I especially agree with this...

" If this guy becomes your local 'cause' and some organization steps in to 'assist' this poor soul,"

In today's climate with so many scam artists out there preying on down and out homeowners, this is a very possible scenario....I'd say notify your E&O carrier and your bond carrier (if you're bonded) immediately - they may provide your defense (but you know that as a MA attorney)...

Good luck with this, Shannan.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/14/09 8:24pm
Msg #285007

I agree, too. More about surety companies...

A while back, I did some work for a very nice guy who turned out to be an attorney for a surety company. (I meant to post this back then, but was very busy and didn't get to it, so I hope I get this right! )

He said that he often sees cases where people have filed frivolous suits against notaries or included them, as in this example, which were thrown out. However, if the signing agent doesn't include their surety company in the ________ (technical term I can't remember - having to do with release or waiver of responsibility, I think, [momentary brain freeze - ugh!]), the notary can still be held responsible for the surety company's attorney fees - which can be substantial, as I'm sure you all know.

He said he sees that happen often and was very animated about wanting to share the information. I believe he was talking about our bond, but this may have also included E&O. [He was speaking legalese and I had to rush to my next appointment, so I didn't get everything.] Hopefully you (sreis) will know what I'm talking about. Can you or any of the insurance gurus or other attorneys here fill in the blanks for me and the rest of us?

Bottom line: he said it was a simple matter to include them and could save someone lots of grief -- and lots of money. This is something that all of us should be aware of, so I'd appreciate whatever anyone can add to help this make more sense!

Thanks, and best of luck with the suit!!

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/09 8:25pm
Msg #285008

Re: I agree with Sue...this is not to be taken lightly

<<<I agree with Sue...this is not to be taken lightly>>>

I too agree that this should not be taken lightly and I'm wondering who Sue's talking about that is taking this lightly. Just because I said "don't be afraid" in no way means I inferred that being sued should be taken lightly. The original poster can handle things without letting fear, which can lead to paranoia dictate their actions. I guess when one is bent on criticizing others opinions (by being so "amazed" rather than just offering they're own view they're bound to continually misinterpret/misunderstand what someone writes - then respond base on their misinterpretation/misunderstanding. But then again, I was responding to SReis.

<<<" If this guy becomes your local 'cause' and some organization steps in to 'assist' this poor soul,">>>

Doesn't matter whose cause Mr. malcontent could become....if SReis has clean hands in all this, she has clean hands, period. Again, I say to SReis....DON'T BE AFRAID.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 4/14/09 8:41pm
Msg #285015

Re: I am, as usual, amazed

Sue is dead on 110% right, IMHO. The whole country seems to be out to find a "way out" of a bad situation and it all rolls downhill. I'm betting money the buyer is going to claim that as an attorney he listened to everything you said. I personally think it's going to be tougher for you than for us non-attorneys and I hope you keep us informed. My support goes out to you and I wish you the best.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/14/09 8:02pm
Msg #284999

So sorry to hear that. Keep us posted & we will try to be supportive. I can't imagine they can get you for anything. The law is clear on what we can/can't do. I believe it's like malpractice, and everyone involved in the transaction has to be included in the litigation.
Hope you have an attorney to consult.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/14/09 8:17pm
Msg #285006

Sue is absolutely right about the cavalier responses. I apologize. I know this is very serious, and the person bringing the suit may be able to prove they were scammed. No matter what it is going to cost you time & money for a defense.

Reply by NCLisa on 4/14/09 9:06pm
Msg #285025

What amazes me is that it is obvious that

these "rescue" companies are scams. I'm sorry, but it IS OBVIOUS

Reply by NCLisa on 4/14/09 9:11pm
Msg #285028

Wasn't finished.

99.5% of the rescue companies are scams, they are going down, and everyone that does work for them will go down to. Even if you aren't really liable for the scam, you will lose your shirt defending yourself. I've seen the posts from people on here that will work for these companies because they want a paycheck, knowing full well that they are scams!

My rule of thumb, is I don't close or work for anyone that I wouldn't go to for a loan or any other service. That, and I'm a huge believer in KARMA!

Really, is the paycheck worth the headache you will have in the long run?

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/14/09 9:28pm
Msg #285034

We are Notaries Public. Value judgements are A Bad Thing.

It is not up to the Notary Public to decide which documents on which to notarize the signatures. Neither is it up to us to decide which are "good" companies and which are "bad". We follow the law. We do not judge borrowers or lenders.

Refusing to notarize someone's signature because their skin color is different or the signature is on a document that we don't like is discrimination. Because that is forbidden by Connecticut law, I assume that it is covered by other states' laws as well....

Please notice that I am _not_ saying that we should notarize a statement that we _know_ is false. Nor that we should notarize the signature of someone whom we cannot identify according to the laws of our individual state. Nor that should we notarize the signature of someone who is (in our _layman's opinion_) mentally incompetent. According to Connecticut law, I can refuse to notarize the signature of someone who does not / can not present the statutory fee. Other than those cases, we don't get to pick and choose.

Reply by NCLisa on 4/14/09 9:37pm
Msg #285039

It is our business to protect our business!

"Neither is it up to us to decide which are "good" companies and which are "bad". We follow the law. We do not judge borrowers or lenders."

It is my business to protect myself and my business from lawsuits. While so many people made a fortune closing subprime loans, I didn't close any! 0- None, and I was still closing 20 A paper loans a week while everyone else lost their shirts because their business went away.

I do not work for companies that send me FHA loans that charge the borrowers $12,000 in bogus fees, and I don't accept work from companies that perpetuate scams. I also don't accept business from companies with bad reps, and that don't pay. I refuse to be a part of the problem of ripping people off. My business model is my own, but when you know the companies are scam artists, and you help them perpetuate the scam, you are just as guilty as the scam artists!

Reply by MichiganAl on 4/14/09 9:41pm
Msg #285041

I disagree

It is certainly up to us to be diligent and aware of any potential scams. We don't have any obligation to notarize anything if we feel there's a fraud being perpetrated. We have every right to decline working for a "bad" company if believe what they're doing is fraudulent, illegal, or misleading. Many state handbooks address this specifically, and I strongly believe it's inherent in what we do. There are thousands of cases involving these types of companies being investigated:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30070197

It has nothing to do with skin color and I don't even understand why you've gone there.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/15/09 12:03am
Msg #285068

Re: I disagree

The mention of skin color was intended to highlight reasons why we can't refuse notarizations.

If you suspect fraud, do what you need to do. It is judgement call whether something is misleading. Illegal is usually obvious, at least to the experienced Notary.

We have the right to decline signings for a company. We do not have the right to decline to notarize a person's signature as long as they have met the requirements of the statutes in our respective states. Please notice the difference between refusing a specific notarization and declining to work for what we believe to be bad companies.

If we receive loan documents that appear "bad" (whatever _that_ means), then we should feel free to hand the signing back to the company that hired us.

Remember, it is not our responsibility to protect people from being stupid. As Notaries Public, we must have no interest in whether they sign or not. If we care, or have a financial interest in them signing (or not), then we must not notarize.

I have left more than one signing and been in tears on the way home because I _thought_ I knew that the borrowers were going to lose their homes because they could not afford the payments. As much as I might, personally, have thought that they were insane to accept the loan, I did not know their circumstances. If the borrowers are who they claim to be as far as I can determine, appear to be mentally competent in my layman's opinion, are _willingly_ signing their names, and appear to understand that they are encumbering their property, then I have done my job under the law and according to my conscience. I may feel badly for the borrowers, but I cannot tell them not to sign because I think they can get a better deal. That would be both unlawful and unethical.

How many times have each of us been asked "What do you think of this interest rate?" For me, the answer is always "I don't know your situation, so I do not have an opinion."

Reply by NCLisa on 4/15/09 7:45am
Msg #285085

Re: I disagree

Actually Ernest, each states laws are different on whether you "can't refuse" to notarize something. There are many states where the notary is not obligated to accept any notorial assignment that is presented to them, and don't.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/15/09 9:42am
Msg #285096

Here we are, back to the same ole Notary vs. Signing Agent

Just because a document require a signature to be notarized, doesn't mean that
this was notarial work.
This assignment seems to have been for a signing agent, who happens to be a notary.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 4/15/09 7:55am
Msg #285087

Re: I agree

I totally agree with Ernest. We are there to verify identities, witness signatures, and notarize where needed. IMO, even feeling like the BO's are getting into deep waters with the whole transaction smacks of UPL, if only in thought. Not my place to protect people from themselves. However, based on the posts here about loan mods, I will refuse up front to do those that smell fishy (i.e. checks from BO). But once I get to the table, I just do my job, don't offer advice or explanations. I immediately pull out my business card, hand it to them, and give them my disclaimer speil, (I am not an attorney, cannot advise you about signing any of these docs, etc. etc.). In fact, I have printed on the back of my card the disclaimer statement provided by our "favorite" (not!) xyz company and point it out to them as I am giving my verbal disclaimer. And when they look at me at any point and say "do you think...........?", I immediately say, if you have any questions or doubts, call your loan officer.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 4/15/09 8:03am
Msg #285088

Re: I also agree

with Ernest about not to frivolously refuse to notarize. We can refuse to accept a signing (I'm booked solid!), but when you are sitting down ready to complete your notary statement, in my state, unless all requirements have not been met (identification, awareness, mental competency, etc.), or the act itself is suspicious to us, we cannot refuse to notarize.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/09 9:27pm
Msg #285033

That's awful!!! Just respond accordingly, and I hope you'd got the bond/insurance to help you cover your costs. Hopefully, the judge will see you aren't responsible and take you off the case. If he does, make sure that you petition the court to recoup your expenses if you can.

It's situations like this that make me glad I have them sign a "disclaimer" of sorts stating that prior to signing his papers, I have explained that I am a notary public there for convenience to present paperwork, witness his signature and verify his identity and that I am not a loan officer, title company, financial advisor, attorney or anything of the like and that, by law, I am unable to offer advice or education of any kind and if he has questions about the documents he is signing he needs to seek out his financial and/or legal adivsors.

I have it in a triplicate form. I keep the original, one goes with the loan docs and one stays with the borrower. Every single time.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/09 9:36pm
Msg #285037

I want to add that I realize these 'disclaimers' might not actually hold up in any court room... I did have an attorney write it up for me, though. He said it's just a simple way of protecting yourself that much more and making it clear to all parties involved that, as a notary, you're not responsible for advising anyone nor are you allowed to. He said in the even that I am sued, I can respond with a copy of the paper the borrower signed to negate or neutralize their claim.

That, and business insurance, people... plenty of general business liability insurance. It's cheaper than E&O and covers a lot more. Though I still have notary E&O, I'm a big believer in business liability insurance.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 4/15/09 11:58am
Msg #285125

I've Been Using a Disclaimer...

...for the past 8 years which every borrower or signer is given before doing anything else. I print mine in duplicate & see no reason to send one in to the TC or anyone else in the process. This is between the signer & me.

CGL is a must for me as well.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/15/09 7:45am
Msg #285084

I've never used one of these type forms although I've read enough posts of people using them and I've also seen them in with title docs. Also not a lawyer, etc., ... I'm guessing this form won't stop you from being named in a suit; however, it may certainly along with other circumstances and facts be helpful in your defense.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 4/15/09 8:10am
Msg #285090

What a good idea, having them sign a disclaimer form. At least it provides a written signature from them acknowledging that they have been told all that info . . . so they can't ever say, She didn't tell us that. Won't get you out of being initially included in a suit, but could provide a faster extrication.

Reply by MichiganAl on 4/14/09 9:31pm
Msg #285035

Those who work with these rescue companies take heed

Very sorry that you're tangled up in this, but this is a good lesson for those who said "as long as they pay" or "I'm just there to notarize" or anything else that justified working for these companies. This was bound to happen eventually, wasn't it? Without knowing any specifics, I'd guess that they're just suing everyone involved and hoping to see what sticks. If you handled things properly, you'll likely be fine in the end (not a lawyer, etc...). It's certainly not up to a notary/signing agent to explain legal ramifications. That's when you'd really be in trouble.

I had back to back closings for a foreclosure rescue company (didn't know that's what it was until I got to the appointment), they both smelled so fishy, both were making the homeowner sign their deeds over to them and never told them. You're darn skippy that I made sure they saw that. Both wisely declined to sign despite the b.s. fast talk that the company spun on the phone, and I've turned down every call from that company since then. It would have been really really good money, but I wanted nothing to do with it. I'm glad I stuck to my principles.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/14/09 9:35pm
Msg #285036

That's an appropriate response to a "rescue" signing!

You didn't give legal advice, you just pointed out the doc that transferred title!

I'm sure you were "already booked" for the dates and times that the company called from then on....

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 4/14/09 10:32pm
Msg #285054

I haven't done any of these rescue deals. Thankfully. With this set of doc's, is there a NORTC? I thankfully tell each and every person I do a loan signing with what my boundries are. Alot of times they are just that desperate and don't care what they are signing. However, in my own personal experience, not reading a legal document is YOUR responsibility. Meaning the borrower is at fault. I do hope and would hope that it doesn't hit your bond or E&O. I don't think it would be right for you to be the lowest paid and hit financially. It's too hard to know what is right sometimes. Best of luck to you. I'm sure it will work in your favor.

Carol

Reply by SReis on 4/14/09 10:47pm
Msg #285057

ACTUALLY>>>>

I had NO idea about the rescue deal. I was hired by a legit signing co that I have worked w/for yrs & many of you may know & was hired to sign the sellers's portion of docs only. Buyer was not present & I had NO idea about the "side" deals buyer & seller allegedly had established. I am an atty but still limit my discussion of docs as I do NOT represent the borrowers interests & are NOT there to discuss the legal ramifications of everything they sign, that is what THEIR atty (if they had had one) should have done. I think I should be ok but its still a big headache & def a scary situation.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/15/09 12:21am
Msg #285071

Re: ACTUALLY>>>>

Oops! Sorry! I assumed that you were a Notary Signing Agent, not an attorney.

That may change things, at least in the eyes of the court. Way, way out of my league!

I sincerely wish you the best! You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

Reply by A-1 Signing Agents, LLC on 4/15/09 7:14am
Msg #285080

Re: ACTUALLY>>>>

I still think it'll hinge on how she was hired. If she was there to witness that is one thing. I think she said she wasn't there as an attorney. Either way, I hope all goes well.

Reply by Cari on 4/14/09 11:29pm
Msg #285063

you have my support...and I believe you will be victorious! n/m

Reply by BobbiCT on 4/15/09 7:20am
Msg #285081

MA attorney state ...

Surely REBA of MA will help you defend yourself. Its real estate attorneys don't want to be in this same situation.

What about the attorney engagement letter? In CT the attorneys are required to have engagement letters disclosing their fee and services. I know when the attorney represents ONLY the lender's interests, many have a non-representation letter that borrowers sign acknowledging that the attorney represents ONLY the lender's interest and is not providing legal opinions or advice to the borrowers on the loan.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/15/09 8:06am
Msg #285089

Another points so many have missed. When filling out certain documents, thinking insurance applications, one of the questions asks if you have ever been sued in relation to your duties. She will now have to answer yes and provide an explaination. If she has insurance coverage and they decide to pay out (probably out of her hands what they actually do) she will have that following her for a long time.

What about her reputation? I've got no idea what size town she lives in but she is a lawyer with a reputation to uphold. In my town, this story would be on the news and above the fold in the newspaper ... everyone and anyone who ever received a solicitation in the mail from one of these companies would be interviewed. She would have the reporter on her front steps. One of the state legislators would be in on it to "halt" these practices on the down trodden ... whether or not this guy was 'wronged' or not.

Perhaps the guy signed an arbitration agreement that should speed things up. Perhaps this is a suit filed in the local courts with many steps and appeals and waiting periods. Perhaps this is going to be a class action suit.

Everyone who works for cheap ... do you pay insurance? I've read previously people say they don't have enough work to justify the premiums. If you have so little work, perhaps you shouldn't do this. Without insurance you must pay your own defense costs and lawyers don't come cheap in civil litigation.

This situation is just one example of the many "intangibles" of our job that a portion of every fee should go towards. No one is going to pay her for her time ... if she's scheduled for a deposition Tuesday at 4:00, she has to turn away any orders. Again, being right or wrong has nothing to do with what is going to happen.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/15/09 12:55pm
Msg #285136

Did you get sumons? I don't consider I'm being sued until

a summons is properly delivered to me. Threats are worthles unless carried out and I never respond to threats. In fact if I'm threatened that is the end of conversationm, negotiation, whathave you. I'm just espousing my personal philosophy and in now shoujld thsi be contsrued as legal advice because legally I have no opinion. To get an opinion ask an attorney, the attorneys opinion may not be correct but is allowed by law.

Reply by Mary_CT on 7/4/09 6:00pm
Msg #294615

I was asked to present one of these loan modification proposals and notarize the agreements- they also asked me to present myself as their representative in their paperwork. It was an outfit based in California- calling CT homeowners in trouble with their mortgage.

I reviewed the paperwork, realized this might well be a scam (they were having the homeowner sign to pay three payments for their help in modifying their loan- with no guarantee of results).. the payments were in the thousands. I checked them on the web and it looked like a company that changes its colors pretty regularly.

I called the company back and advised them that I would not present this paperwork to be signed. I was not comfortable with it, it was not a "loan signing" and from my read, looked sketchy.

They called me a few more times and I told them I was absolutely not interested.

Just because someone sends you something they want to have notarized by a client does not mean you have to do it.

I refused. I never present myself as anything other than the notary who is actually an officer of the state, not an employee of the bank or the signing service, nor I am part of the loan company or attorney. I am there to verify identity, maintain confidentiality, assure that the paperwork is signed and shipped properly. I answer fact questions, not offer opinions.

Reply by Mary_CT on 12/4/13 5:00pm
Msg #495017

Is there an update on this post? What was the final result in relation to the notary being sued?