Posted by Knight Notary Services on 4/29/09 10:53pm
Msg #286760

Mortgage Fraud - Someone altered my certifcate!

Had a lady show up at my house today and asked if I knew her. I said no. She said that I had notarized a mortgage deed with her name on it back in 2004. I told her I've notarized thousands of loans, obviously I would not know you by face. She should me the document, however, it looked as if my notary certificate was altered. So I told her to come inside while I go check my ledger, and for sure I can tell you if I notarized your signature. This was a cloing done back in October 2004.

I checked my ledger and I only notarized documents for her husband. I have no record of her in my ledger. I NEVER NOTARIZE DOCUMENTS WITHOUT DOCUMENTING PROPER ID SO SHE OBVIOUSLY WAS NOT PRESENT. She said that she did not sign these docs, and the bank (obviously) will not offer any information regarding this loan that was taken out since she was not on the loan. With MI being a dower state, she only needed to be on the title. However, again she said to me I never signed these documents. So apparently after I notarized these docs there were some major alterations done!

I took at good look at the notary certificate and noticed that someone has added her name to my certificate and the wording "his wife". I NEVER stipulate marital status when notarizing, so again confirmation that either lender or the title company changed my certificate and someone later down line forged her signature. She was not present at the closing as I have no record of her being there.

My guess is that she going through a divorce maybe, and it looks like I'll end up being a key witness confirming that the notarization I performed was for her husband only. Somone else after this closing was complete added her signature and altered my certificate. I mean this lady drove all the way to my house, which I don't blame her and I feel sorry for her. Chances are . . the equity the thought she had, he probably took all of it out. Anyhoot, that's just my opinion.

However, I am VERY upset that someone took the liberty of defrauding a homeowner and had the nerve to alter my certificate. I take pride in giving people a piece of mind that when they refinance their mortgage at least little ole me (the notary) is checking ID's to see who's signing. Again, I write in my ledger ANY AND ALL parties identification IF I am notarizing their signature. (My ledger even details this for ALL married signings I have done, each person has their own entry with all thier info). I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a call from either her or her attorney regarding this which is perfectly fine because whomever did this needs to pay and go to jail. I even pull my confirmation from the TC and she's not listed on it, just her husband. It's just awful for something like this to happen.

But my question is this, who on my behalf can I sue or at least bring charges against for fradulently altering my certifcate? What type of attorney, if at all, should I contact?

TIA , sorry for any typos . . it's late and I'm stressed! :-(

Reply by pan/nd on 4/29/09 11:04pm
Msg #286761

Try the Michigan Secretary of State's office for starters

Reply by GA/Atty on 4/29/09 11:04pm
Msg #286762

Probably no one, as you have suffered no damages.

Hard to squeeze a civil suit out of this one, I think.

Reply by Gary_CA on 4/30/09 10:07am
Msg #286802

No civil suite, but criminal and or regulatory action

This was most likely done by the TC so get a hold of whoever regulates them. In California it's the Department of Insurance. Also, as someone suggested the Secty of State as it involved a notary certificate.

You wouln't get any money, but they'll be on this like white on rice.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/29/09 11:06pm
Msg #286763

Unfortunately, I'm sure that happens very often. There are too many dishonest people.

That is one more reason why everyone should have a journal with signatures and thumbprints. It is proof positive that someone was or was not present. You can forge a signature and get a fake id; however, you can't forge a thumbprint.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/29/09 11:09pm
Msg #286764

Even if you could press charges, how would you know who forged the signatures? Chances are the people involved might not even work for that lender (or whoever) now.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/29/09 11:11pm
Msg #286765

Keep us posted as this proceeds...if it does. n/m

Reply by Knight Notary Services on 4/29/09 11:13pm
Msg #286766

JoJo

very true which is why I asking to get thoughts for you guys.

Obviously her husband had some role in this, so we'll just see what happens I guess. She wasn't present at "my signing" and I will testify under oath to this if need be. But again, just leaves a sour taste in my mouth with the nerve of people. It's a shame what greed will make people do!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/30/09 12:16am
Msg #286769

This is one of the reasons why, on certificates, if there is ANY black space, I mark it in a very specific way using lines and slashes.

So it might look something like this:



On ---/April 29, 2009/--- before me ... personally appeared -------------------------/John F. Smith/-----------------------, who proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the person(s) whose name(s)....

and so on.


I make sure that there is no room for somebody to change the date or add a name. Sometimes I draw a straight line, sometimes a wavy one, but I always use the slashes. That was something an old mentor of mine taught me to do.

Basically, she said to always mark your certs in such a way that there can be no way someone could change your cert without it being obviously forged.

Reply by HB/CA on 4/30/09 1:11am
Msg #286770

Exactly my thought when I first read this. I was taught early on to draw a line directly after the person named in the certificate so that no one can come along later and fill in any other names. I make sure the client knows that this is for their protection against fraud. I like the slash idea, I think I will add that to my wavy line.

I sure hope this mess gets cleared up.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/30/09 1:35am
Msg #286771

Another way I've seen it done, which I think can look really sharp is with arrows:


-------------------------> JOHN Q. JONES <----------------------

-------------> John Q. Jones and Wilma Z. Huffington-Jones <------


I use the slashes myself right now... but I do it a certain way so that I can always identify my own work. The first thing I was taught when learning to be a notary was about filling out certs and filling them out in a consistent manner so that if I'm ever called to court to testify, I can easily stand behind my work. She also told me to change it from time to time, but keep a detailed record of the dates I make the changes, for obvious reasons. This woman did a lot of notarizing for an attorney and I guess she was in court at least once a month and she said her system never failed her and she was never bothered getting called in.

Reply by BEEJ on 4/30/09 5:49am
Msg #286776

Marian- Thanks for good information! n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/30/09 5:11am
Msg #286772

Re: Mortgage Fraud - Someone altered my certificate!

Since this exact situation is one I've always thought most ripe for fraud - a married person signing without the spouse (in MI, that doesn't fly except on purchases) - I note it in my records. I've had a couple loans where the title agent told me "spouse doesn't have to sign." Okie-dokie, not my call - but I make a note of it. "Wife did not sign, per title agent is not required." or "Wife did not sign, signing separately", or whatever the case may be. I'll put a "Notes" paragraph right into my invoice with anything that I think I might ever want as a CYA, too - that puts it in front of the client as well, and that can be an easy way to 'buy' some insurance.

Reply by Julie/MI on 4/30/09 6:17am
Msg #286777

What I would do

Hi Larita,

Well, you keep great records and I really think (and you'll have to keep us updated, curious as to what county the property is in) that you have nothing to worry about. I would bet someone was lazy at title or bank and simply forged Mrs. signature cause they dropped the ball somewhere down the line. It may not be a dramatic as the husband pulling the equity out and running and the husband may have had no knowledge about what happened.

Now, we know our lovely secretary of state office of the great seal is useless, but please DO call and let us know what happens. Additionally, you may want to file a police report to show that the woman came to your home (how did she get your home address, by the way, did you ask her?) and that will establish YOUR PAPER TRAIL, in case it's necessary, you did let her in your home which I think was brave of you. Mortgage documents DO have fed and state laws, so a police report may be a good thing to have.

She called it a mortgage deed, there's no such thing as a mortgage deed which shows she's not to smart. I would go to the county clerk's office where the original was recorded and see if what's at the county on record is what she brought to you. You never know, she could be pulling some funny business.

Now I bet you didnt' do this, because why would you, but wouldn't you love to see the signature on her license to see if the signature really WAS forged, if it was remotely close to her signature?

Good Luck!

Reply by Julie/MI on 4/30/09 6:19am
Msg #286778

Sorry I never answered your question :)

I guess you would have to find out whom actually altered your certificate and then if you suffered damages you could sue them. that may be a first a notary suing someone for altering their certificate. This will obviously not be resolved for a long time.

Reply by Knight Notary Services on 4/30/09 7:26am
Msg #286782

Re: What I would do

Thanks Julie and it’s so good to hear from you!

This occurred in Oakland County. Not sure how she got my address, I assumed once she good a copy of the mortgage, she did a search online. My name comes up in several searches. She completely caught me off guard when came to my house as you can imagine, and I didn’t feel a threat which is why I let her in my home. She said that she does not recall ever meeting me nor does she recall refinancing her mortgage, which is why she came to my house to make my face was not one that she had seen before. However, she did not go into details as to what was going. That’s when the light bulb went off and I’m like wait, if I notarized your signature then for sure you’d be in my ledger. Went and got the ledger quickly and sure nuff she’s not in it. So somebody’s lying and I will not speculate as to whom or even what’s going on at this point.

And yep I agree, SOS is a hot mess here in MI, and is pretty much useless, but I will file a complaint anyhow once I contact Oakland County and get a copy of the deed myself to indeed prove that the certificate was altered. And yes there is no way in MI this refi could have gone through without her signature, so somebody obviously dropped the ball.

Anyhow thanks everyone for your suggestions. I really appreciate your comments. While I’m not worried since I did nothing wrong, I’m very angry that this happened to me (let alone the wife if indeed she has no clue about this). However, if they are both scam artist, then I hope they both get the book thrown at them (sort of speak). This is a good lesson learned, although it is a crying shame how untruthful people can be for money!

Reply by Prosperity on 4/30/09 6:51am
Msg #286780

I once received a document back from a Title Company telling me that I "forgot" to affix my notary seal. They wanted me to stamp it and return it. I called & told them that my signature was forged & maybe that's why I didn't stamp it. They asked me if I could sign under the "forged" signature & then stamp it. I told them no b/c I didn't not actually witness the borrowers sign. I also told them that I suspected the borrowers' signatures were forged since mine was. I charged them to go back out to have the document properly signed & notarized. As I suspected, the borrowers told me that those were not their signatures either. I allowed the borrowers to copy the false document & I kept a copy for my files.

Reply by James Powell on 4/30/09 7:31am
Msg #286783

If you have any information that identifies the title company you did the signing for, please contact the MI Office of Financial and Insurance Regulation with the information. In particular, Randy Watkins is the one who handles title insurance companies.

Reply by Knight Notary Services on 4/30/09 7:53am
Msg #286784

Yes I keep a copy of all my confirmations, where I attach the top half of my payment check, my mapquest directions to prove mileage driven, and a copy of shipping label. So I know the lender and the TC. And with all the dirty laundry that has been taken place with banks recently, I am now not so surprised since this lender is under FBI investigation for fraud.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 4/30/09 8:07am
Msg #286785

Besides forgery being foremost, this scenario begs to ask

why wasn't the wife present at the closing? In her own words the notary says that a refi would never close without the spouse. A confirmation does not always list all the parties that need to be present at the closing. It is our job when we call the borrower to see if there is a spouse in the event that that information falls by the wayside if the state requires the spouse to take part. I have a closing today that obviously title does not know there is a spouse. Confirmation gives mans name. Phone call reveals there is a wife and this is their primary home. Docs were sent last evening with her name nowhere to be found. So therefore a phone call is in order to the title co..

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/30/09 8:42am
Msg #286786

Re: Besides forgery being foremost, this scenario begs to ask

In my state of Virgina, a married person can own property separately from their spouse. Spouse does not sign anything unless they are also on title to the property. The only time I call the TC is if the TC docs come in with both husband and wife but the lender docs come in with only one of them listed for signature.

Reply by Knight Notary Services on 4/30/09 8:42am
Msg #286787

Re: Besides forgery being foremost, this scenario begs to ask

Again, that's my point. I'm not sure why she wasn't present. The original mortgage could have been drafted with her husband listed as unmarried. This has happened several times. I did not document if the signer was a married or single borrower and niether am I required to do this. I'm just the notary, not an attorney. I would have however ASKED, since in MI this would not fly. He could have told me he was single. However, until I get a copy of the mortgage, and I can't say for sure what all got altered BESIDES just my certificate. She said she didn't sign the mortgage, however, she showed me a page with her signature on it and her initials on every page which again she said she did not do. So who's to say the entire mortgage wasn't redrafted, forged, with my altered certificate attached to it. I have no clue, which is why I'll be getting a copy of it.

Either way though, I didn't nortaized her signature. And you're right, the confirmation page does not list whether or not the borrower is single or married, which is why I do ask.

However, the issue at hand is not why she wasn't present . . . that's irrelevant at this point. I'm a notary before I'm a signing agent. The problem is this, whether this was a loan signing or just a regular affidavit on a Will, no one is allowed to alter my certifcate. And if they do, they should be punished. However, as others have stated it'll be hard to find out who actually did it.

I'll keep you guys posted on this.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/30/09 9:56am
Msg #286800

STRONGLY (would emphasize this more if I could) disagree

...It is our job when we call the borrower to see if there is a spouse ...

I have NEVER asked anyone this question nor do I intend to start. They have dealt with a lender. Someone has done a title search. They have most times had contact with the settlement agent. Our job is to get the paperwork signed that our cilent sends us. Why in the world do so many overstep their bounds? If something comes up in conversation that you feel bears repeating, by all means call your client and let them know whatever it is. Your job is not to go on a fishing expedition to see if many others in the line before you have missed something ... What else do you ask? How many liens there are? Do you then double check?

Reply by Knight Notary Services on 4/30/09 10:27am
Msg #286806

Sue PA

Gotta love your sarcasim! :-) But that's your way of doing business. Doesn't make it right or wrong, just your way of doing it.

When I call and confirm my appointments I advise as well that if you’re married both parties will need to present. Nothing more. To me this one line saves the headache of getting to a closing only to find that it needs to be rescheduled since one spouse is missing.

As I indicated before I’m just the notary, not an attorney. It’s not my job to investigate marital status, especially if the documents do not lead me to believe otherwise.

However, at the very least if indeed my certificate was altered I will report it. Obviously, she needs to seek legal counsel to get this rectified. I would not have known this happened had she not showed up at my door. But apparently this isn’t anything new and probably happens more often then we think.

Thanks!

Reply by sue_pa on 4/30/09 10:38am
Msg #286811

Re: Sue PA

there was absolutely no sarcasm intended. go back a week or so ago and read a post from ME in NJ about a marital issue. IT IS NOT YOUR JOB TO TELL ANYONE THEY NEED TO BE ANYWHERE . If somewants them to be there and sign paperwork, they will let them know.

Reply by snoopdogMs on 4/30/09 11:17am
Msg #286821

Re: Sue PA

I disagree. I would rather ask the question than show up and the spouse not be there and only be paid trip and print fee. I have been thanked many times (never scolded) by the hiring entity for the heads up. And I will continue to do so. You are correct Sue in that it is not my job to tell anyone to be anywhere, but I can alert the title company to the facts and THEY can decide who needs to be there if there has been an oversight (which does happen) occasionally.

Reply by jojo_MN on 4/30/09 12:04pm
Msg #286831

Re: Sue PA

I posted this a couple years back, but it does pertain to this discussion. The second situation occured during a severe snowstorm. I literally risked my life going there because all of the plows were taken off the roads at the time I went. It took me four hours to drive what normally takes me 1 - 1 1/2 hours travel.

I automoatically ask any borrower if he or she is married. Whether it is two women, men, or one of each. I have run into every possible senerio. I've had a couple sign the documents with the same last name. I assumed they were husband and wife. Half way through the closing (after signing over 100 pages), we came to the mortgage and I was asked why the document stated "husband and wife". As it turned out, they were brother and sister that took over ownership of their parents' house after they passed away. The woman retained her maiden name and both of them were married, so docs had to be redrawn with both of their spouses added to the mortgage and other legals.

Another time, I did a full purchase closing with a couple selling the house and a male and female (couple) purchasing. I asked them (the borrowers) if they were married. They said "no". Two days later I got an angry call from the Title company asking why the husband didn't sign the documents. I said he did sign--the seller's docs. As it turned out, the female purchaser was married, but to someone else. I had to drive down that night at 11:30 pm (over 1 1/2 hours away) to have her husband sign (who was living with a girlfriend). I didn't get paid for either trip because it was "my fault" for not makng sure that the non-borrowiing spouse signed the docs.

I now ALWAYS ask "are you married to each other and/or anyone else"!

Reply by PAW on 4/30/09 12:33pm
Msg #286839

Not always ...

>>> I advise as well that if you’re married both parties will need to present. <<<

Not necessarily.

Though curtesy has been abolished in Michigan, dower is still in effect. A bill pending in the Michigan Legislature seeks to abolish dower as well. Michigan law relating to dower is found at MCLA 558.1 et. seq. and at MCLA 700.1 et seq. The basic rule is that a wife must join in all conveyances of lands in which her husband was seized of an estate of inheritance during the marriage. MCLA 554.2, 558.1 ***Since it must be an estate of inheritance, dower does not attach to property held in fee by the husband which in encumbered by a vendee's interest in land contract during the entire time of coverture (the length of the marriage) or property owned by the husband as a joint tenant. Further, the lien of a purchase money mortgage is superior to a wife's right of dower. MCLA 558.4.***

Michigan is not a community property state.

Michigan homestead laws inure to the benefit of husbands and wives. With respect to homestead property, one spouse, acting alone without the signature of the other souse, cannot create a valid lien upon any interest in the homestead. The only exception relates to the granting of a purchase money mortgage. Michigan Constitution 1963, MCLA 600.901.

(Source: Stewart Underwriting Manual)

If the title company and lender do not include a 'wife' on the documents, it just may be that they know something you don't. IOW, don't try to second guess the ones responsible for the transaction.

I agree with Sue, don't go on a fishing expedition. But, if the subject is broached at the table, then it is prudent to contact the title company and let them make the decision.

As is oft said, don't analyze, notarize.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/30/09 3:34pm
Msg #286880

Re: Not always ...

I run into a different situation from time to time. Usually it's when the loan is in only one person's name and both parties are on title. The person on the loan doesn't always understand that the other person on title has a few docs to sign also, and it's amazing how often that message doesn't get communicated. In CA, it's also possible that a married person owns the property as "sole and separate", in which case the spouse does NOT have to be there.

If I'm confirming before I have docs, I don't ask someone if they're married (because it's not the key issue here), but if my confirmation has only one name (which is frequently the case) I DO ask if there is anyone else on title who needs to be there. That has prevented a lot of wasted time for me and a good number of borrowers out there. Sometimes the experts are a little too close to the process and they make assumptions about either what someone else knows (i.e. borrowers) or what someone else has communicated to them (i.e. LO). My only concern is that the people

If I have the documents, I simply check the signature lines and the vesting. As long as they match up, I don't second guess. If there is an obvious mismatch, then I call my client.

Reply by Linda Hubbell on 4/30/09 9:02am
Msg #286788

Re: Mortgage Fraud - my .02 FWIW

Don't blame you for being upset about the certificate change...but I wonder - isn't this something that has to be handled at the state level? Your gripe is with the person/entity who altered your cert, which wasn't the SOS, and by your own admission your SOS isn't going to help. The lady's gripe is a forged signature on the mortgage...

Personally, I think the lady should get an attorney to follow up for her, and if she's getting a divorce she SHOULD have one who's protecting her financial interests (hope she's not a DIY person)....you're just going to end up being a witness in this matter, but you if it helps you feel better because you've acted, get a copy of the forged document and contact your state's AG to give them a heads up as to what occurred - let them handle dragging in all parties (title, lender, state departments) who may be material to the matter. If it's truly a forgery (which is up to the lady to prove, not you) then it's a criminal matter, and your AG should pursue it to the fullest extent of the law.

JMHO and Good Luck.

Reply by Marilynn Wells on 4/30/09 9:26am
Msg #286790

Thanks for sharing the situation. In this case the woman contacted you, otherwise you would never have known about the alteration. I'm guessing there is more of this kind of fraud than we know. IMO, at the very least, it needs to be reported to your SOS and documented. It will be interesting if the woman pursues it in court. Good luck.

Reply by Pete Michinock on 4/30/09 10:14am
Msg #286804

Had a lender call me to say that my notary license had expired on the acknowledgment I notarized. The bank was checking things out because they didn't have a bank VP by that name on this reconveyance deed that I stamped.

They forged my name, changed the dates on my 'old' notary seal. I destroy the old seal personally when I renew, so marvelous things can be done with all this technology today. Nothing else happened that I know of, but it was another case of fraud by having this document stating the loan was paid in full.

Reply by kathy/ca on 4/30/09 11:31am
Msg #286824

In CA, we have to turn in our journals when we stop doing

notarizations, (dont know about other states) in which case if something of this nature happened to one of us in CA and we were no longer notarizing, we would not have record of who signed or didnt sign. Does anyone keep some other kind of record of who they have notarized for?

Reply by Vince/KS on 4/30/09 12:45pm
Msg #286841

Possible this was a mishandled split signing - you did 1st? n/m

Reply by Mary Ellen Harvley on 5/3/09 10:43pm
Msg #287179

I would contact the local Assistant Dristict Attoorney General as this is a crimminal act and that is who would press charges.

You can ask permission to go before the next convening Grand Jury and ask them to investigate it.

It not only needs to be handled in her apparent divorce, but as a criminal matter also.