Posted by NCLisa on 4/28/09 1:32pm
Msg #286555

NC SOS

I'm getting so tired of their inconsistent answers. They want everything both ways. I've asked the same question several times over the years. I got an answer over the phone and not in writing last time. This time I requested it be in writing.

Here is a paragraph from the NC Notary Guidebook about ID:
"Satisfactory evidence is either sufficient documentary evidence or confirmation by a credible witness. Identification usually is by means of the required documentary evidence. Satisfactory documentary evidence of identity must consist of "[a]t least one current document issued by a federal, state, or federal or state-recognized tribal government agency bearing the photographic image of the individual's face and either the signature or a physical description of the individual."16 Satisfactory documentary evidence from a government jurisdiction is not limited to that issued by United States federal or state authorities;
It could consist of an official government identification card issued in another country, provided that the card is currently valid and includes the individual's photographic image and his or her signature or physical description. The notary should examine the information on the presented identification for a match to the individual who presents it and for apparent legitimacy. The notary should not rely on identity cards that show signs of tampering or alteration."

To me, this says that if docs say Emily Jean Jones and NCDL says Emily Grissom Jones, then I do not have satisfactory evidence that they are one and the same person. That I have satisfactory evidence that she is Emily Grissom Jones, Emily Jones and Emily G. Jones. This is what I was told over the phone, ID and name must match.

So here is the question I submitted to the NCSOS requesting the answer in writing:
"I would like to have the answer to this question emailed to me so I have it
in writing.

The person that I am to notarize as a NCDL that lists there name as Emily
Grissom Jones, the Deed she is to sign has the name Emily Ann Jones on it.
She has no government issued photo ID to show that she is or was Emily Ann
Jones. She has a SS card with the Ann on it, but as we all know, the SS
card is never to be used for identification purposes.

My view is that I can notarize Emily G. Jones, Emily Jones, or Emily Grissom
Jones, but not Emily Ann Jones or Emily A. Jones.

Please answer this question, as the guidebook only says "satisfactory
evidence". And with loan and mortgage fraud and identity theft so prevelant
these days, I want to make sure I do things 100% correctly."

Here is the reply:

As a NC Notary Public you may decline to notarize any document.

Thank you,
Dee
Notary Public Section
Customer Service
919-807-2219



Before any of you get ahead of yourself, the name I have used is fictional.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/28/09 1:35pm
Msg #286556

That sounds exactly like an answer I would receive from the Virginia Secretary of the Commonwealth! Except, your answer was in a complete sentence with punctuation and everything.

Reply by NCLisa on 4/28/09 1:40pm
Msg #286557

The updated response when I demanded clarificaiton

Please refer to page 24 of your current 2006 Tenth ed. Notary Public Guidebook
under 3.2.2 Identification. You have what we have.

Thank you,
Dee
Notary Public Section
Customer Service
919-807-2219

Reply by Tom/NJ on 4/28/09 4:52pm
Msg #286575

Re: The updated response when I demanded clarificaiton

Sounds like they do not know their job other than what is written on paper and can not translate that in an answer for you, or are not going to interpret that for you into an answer.

I've run into the same thing with NJ..I asked a fairly simple question, and had to re-word it literally 3 ways for the lady in the Notary Public section to give me a clear answer. I guess she realizes I was not going to stop sending emails to her until I got a clear answer to my question.

Reply by HKB on 4/28/09 2:15pm
Msg #286561

"Satisfactory evidence is either sufficient documentary evidence or confirmation by a credible witness. "

Does your client have any one who can confirm in writing that she is the same person. The credible witness will have to submit a copy of their I.D. too.

Reply by NCLisa on 4/28/09 5:33pm
Msg #286583

I just want a straight answer to the question. This scenario happens all the time in this area. You get different answers on the phone. I want it answerred once and for all. It is the SOS's job to make notary requirements as clear as possible.

PS - I would NEVER use a credible witness for a loan signing. The Patriot Act is still enforce as far as banking transactions, and it says nothing about credible witnesses.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/29/09 7:49am
Msg #286658

Took me 5 mos w/ MI SOS ...

I posed this same question and a few other 'common' ones, went back & forth through various depts of State for 5 months, but learned a LOT.

First - the specific question - your NC Notary Public STATUTE Chapter 10B says:

"(22) Satisfactory evidence. – Identification of an individual based on either of the following:
a. At least one current document issued by a federal, state, or federal or state‑recognized tribal government agency bearing the photographic image of the individual's face and either the signature or a physical description of the individual.
b. The oath or affirmation of one credible witness who personally knows the individual seeking to be identified."

Key words/verbiage is nearly identical to MI - but these are laws, I am not an attorney, this is PURELY conversation ... the only one you're going to get to interpret these laws to you in a practical format is from the SOS's legal dept, or even the AG office (definitely not Customer Service).

I might conversationally draw your attention to the word "based" - ID is "based on" ... that particular word was chosen for specific reasons. Consider - they did not say "ID is as provided on ..." or "solely evidenced by" or myriad other words there are to select from. They chose "based on" because that is what they intended.

"Based on ..." might be interpreted to mean, in practical application, that the gov't issued ID is a fundamental building block with which further investigation might/might not prudent in order to achieve the "satisfaction" we are required to achieve.

As I went through my own research (few years ago), I was intrigued to discover that in MI, the SOS is charged by statute to be responsible for placing a person's "legal name" on their MI D/L or ID. Therefore, I find for MYSELF that it is prudent to assume that, when handed a MI D/L or ID, the SOS has satisfied THEIR own legal responsibility to place on that document that person's legal name. I "base" my determination upon that foundation.

Conversationally, I might continue that whatever a person's ID signature might appear to 'read', if I look at it like TEXT, is regardless to what their "legal name" is. I mean - ID might say "Bertram Holly" but the signature might 'read' as "Buddy Holly" - that signature is a mark that stands for "Bertram Holly" (I might conclude, conversationally ....)

Fun stuff.

Reply by NCLisa on 4/29/09 7:55am
Msg #286660

My 4th email to them yesterday

stated that I expected a "real" answer that interpreted the guidelines specifically. I reminded them that they have the power to take away my commission if I do things incorrectly, and that I've been given inconsistent answers on the phone. Once and for all, they need to answer the question, and I expect the question to be answered by the powers that be at the SOS's office.

I'm sure it will take them awhile to get back to me. They prefer to call, and give you an answer over the phone so you can not hold them to it. Not this time!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/29/09 8:10am
Msg #286662

I'm still waiting for a response from our SOS

to my question months ago regarding POA's & Jurats ... my first answer from them referred me to the manual and suggested I consult an attorney for further clarification, ending with "hope this helps"...I wrote back and told them no it was no help, it was not up to me to retain an attorney to interpret info that THEIR office was supposed to provide, and if they were unable to give me proper answers and guidance, then refer my question to the legal department and have them contact me - I haven't heard a word since.