Posted by docs1954CA on 4/9/09 3:49pm
Msg #284246

Oregon/California 2 part signing question

I am handling the second part of a closing here in Calif, 3 signers total.The first party signed in Oregon, the last 2 will be here in Calif. This loan is for a Ca. property.

The Oregon Notary used the Calif ack, but didn't change the state to Ca, or enter anything in the county space.I have a feeling the recorders office will bounce that Ack, due to the missing venue and the wrong state.I'm told that the recorders offices here in Ca.want a Ca. Ack even if the parties signed elsewhere, which seems wrong to me. Perhaps some Oregon Notaries can shed some light on this.TIA.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 4/9/09 3:52pm
Msg #284247

When signing in Oregon the Sec of state requires

that you fill in the county in Oregon,you're in and of course fill in the state Of Oregon.

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/9/09 4:08pm
Msg #284250

If you are a CA notary Public you cannot use any venue on an acknowledgement or jurat other than the State of CA and a CA County (where you are physically at the moment) because that is the limit of your authority under CA Law.

YOU can only legally work in the state where you are commissioned (excepting certain federal government locations such as embassies. military bases and ships, etc.) which isn't an issue here. Your responsibility is to and about the person whose signature you are notarizing and if it is happening in another state you have no authority to notarize in that state.

CA Recorders are required to accept legally and correctly completed Notarial Acts from another state, which apparently isn't the case here. I believe that No Venue shown on the face of the document equals an incomplete notarization in all the states.

Reply by docs1954CA on 4/9/09 4:19pm
Msg #284258

Thanks David,.....but....

You answered questions I didn't ask.I am in Calif,and I understand what my responsibilities are. The last paragraph makes sense to me, as it was exactly what I was thinking too, they have to accept another states Ack, even if it doesn't conform to Calif. law, unless of course it's incomplete.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/9/09 5:31pm
Msg #284271

Re: Thanks David,.....but....

Yes but you said, "The Oregon Notary used the Calif ack, but didn't change the state to Ca, or enter anything in the county space.I have a feeling the recorders office will bounce that Ack, due to the missing venue and the wrong state."

That's actually a bit confusing. Do you mean that the Notary didn't change to venue at all... meaning he just used a standard CA loose form and left the venue alone? Meaning...

Instead of:
--------------------
State of Oregon
County of Multnomah
--------------------

they left it as:
---------------------------------
State of California
County of ___________________
---------------------------------


If that's the case, then it's an incomplete notarization and it probably will be kicked back. The Oregon notary messed up there. The OR notary can use CA wording, they just have to use the proper venue, which thy apparently did not. But, CA recorders should take out of state notarization just fine, provided they're complete and legal.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/9/09 5:02pm
Msg #284265

Oregon notary messed up. Should have lined through

'Calif' and printed OREGON, and initialed change. Should have printed the Oregon county.

When docs arrive with the CA wording, I don't change anything but the jurisdiction (venue), as it really doesn't matter to me. I'm not under CA law, so lining out that portion is really moot.

Regardless, recorders can't ascribe CA law to Oregon notaries. JMHO.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/9/09 5:21pm
Msg #284267

If they catch it, the title company will change the state and venue

Reply by sue_pa on 4/9/09 5:22pm
Msg #284268

duh ... state and county n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/9/09 5:28pm
Msg #284270

"If they catch it, the title company will change the state and venue "

Which, IMO, is just wrong and should be illegal - tampering with a notary cert, even under the guise of "correcting" it, is not part of the TC's job - if the cert needs revision only the notary should be touching it.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/09 5:47pm
Msg #284273

And in Florida it would have to be completely redone.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/9/09 5:54pm
Msg #284274

Anyone touching my notarial certificates after the fact is committing forgery if you ask me.

I have gone to the County Clerk's office to review recorded documents and have checked on some of my old work as a quality control type of thing because I've heard plenty of stories. I've not seen anyone change one of mine yet, thankfully.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/9/09 6:07pm
Msg #284277

I did a split signing once and attached a separate certificate for the couple whose signatures I was notarizing. The previous notary, in PA, had lined through their names on her certificate as she wasn't notarizing their signatures.
When the mortgage was recorded here my certificate was absent and the couple whose signatures I had notarized were added to the first notary's certificate.

I went to the recorders office and notified them of the fraudulent certificate, they said they couldn't do anything without a police report. So, I went to the police who told me that I would have to file a report where the certificate was altered, which, of course, was not in Florida.
So, the mortgage was recorded with a fraudulent notary certificate!

Reply by OR on 4/9/09 8:17pm
Msg #284288

My 2 cents. I had one of these and yes it needed to be correted before sending it.

However the sentence that says;

"I certify under PENALTY OF PERJURY under the law of the state of California that the foregoing paragraph is true and correct." Stays as it is no corrections.

We were just talking about a what if ..."You were doing a signing and the signer had a POA for one of the borrowers. Would you ask to see a POA before notarizing." I say if I was in Ca I certainly would want to se the POA base on the new sentence that is in the New Certificates Of Acknowledgments. I do not swear to anything to be true unless I know that it is true.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/9/09 8:32pm
Msg #284294

"I say if I was in Ca I certainly would want to se the POA base on the new sentence that is in the New Certificates Of Acknowledgments. I do not swear to anything to be true unless I know that it is true."

Flawed thinking since there's no mention of the attorney-in-fact status in the acks...the ack cites the signer individually, so the ID they present is sufficient ...that' new statement only applies to the ack, not the body of the document....MHO

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/9/09 10:40pm
Msg #284302

Linda is correct

<<<.....that' new statement only applies to the ack, not the body of the document....MHO>>>

The "I certify under Penalty of Perjury" statement refers to the paragraph above it on the Acknowledgment where the Notary is certifying that Minnie Mouse personally appeared on said date, etcetera and so forth. CA Notaries are not responsible for the contents of a document.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/10/09 3:41am
Msg #284309

Agree. Not only that...

...we're prohibited from certifying capacity, which a Power of Attorney would be. The principal whose name is being signed by the party appearing before us does not have their name on the certificate, so it shouldn't be an issue.

Reply by sue_pa on 4/10/09 7:26am
Msg #284312

...However the sentence that says;

"I certify under PENALTY OF PERJURY under the law of the state of California that the foregoing paragraph is true and correct." Stays as it is no corrections. ...

Not for me. I cross that off every time. I am not in CA and I am not certifying anything under their perjury laws. This is not a required part of a PA ack so I don't use it.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/9/09 9:17pm
Msg #284296

Not your problem. Plus Susan hit on a good point.....

Follow the laws as they apply to your part of the notarization. That is all you need to worry about. What the other notary screwed up is not your problem.


As far as Susan's point that Ca can't dictate law to an Oregon notary, Ca can't dictate law to anyone in any other state. I was talking to my county recorder sometime back, and if, for instance, a signature on a DOT was notarized in another state according to that other states laws, the document will record in San Bernardino County, CA. There is a little document called the Constitution of the United States that prohibits one state's laws from being in force or imposed in another state.

Reply by OR on 4/9/09 10:05pm
Msg #284299

Re: I had one bounce.

I was doing a signing for OP. The property was in Ca. The signing was here in Or. The Title Co. refused the ack in the package. They wanted a "CA" new ACK with the new wording. I had got go back and get the new Ca Ack signed. Just my experance as of last Febuary, 2009.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/9/09 11:57pm
Msg #284303

The title company bounced it right? It never made it to

the county, to be bounced back if I read your post right. While researching properties on this years tax sale I have actually viewed DOTs notarized in other states with that state's wording.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/9/09 11:58pm
Msg #284304

I'd have charged full fee for that one. We're not

notarizing the property - which could be on the moon for all I care - and we don't notarize documents. We notarize signatures. If the signer's feet are in Oregon when they sign, then I'm using an ack cert that complies with Oregon law. I'll use their certs, because they contain the necessary elements of the Ore cert. The extra blurb about "under penalty of perjury under California law" is just frufru outside of CA.

JMHO

Reply by OR on 4/10/09 12:41am
Msg #284305

Re: Yes

You are reading my post correct. I had a Title Co. bounce an ACK because it did not have CA wording. Yes I stood in Oregon and did the signing in Oregon for a property in CA. So what I am saying that at least 1 Title Co. I know of will not except any thing but a CA ACK for a CA property no matter what state the Notary is notarizing in. As for the Court House excepting it to be valid I don't know if they will or will not. If you think you can charge more to go back and do a Ca. ACK them so be that is you business. I am saying that this is my experience with the Title Co I worked with not my option. Yes I did re do the ACK (I was told it was not my fault by the way) because it is great for business. Not everything has to be hard ball for me. However I know I could have ask for $$ but chose not too, title paid shipping. I bumped the trip on other things I needed to do and every one was happy.

JoAnn Baracosa

Reply by OR on 4/10/09 12:48am
Msg #284306

Re: Yes=was meant to go under Glenn sorry n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/10/09 1:30am
Msg #284308

Hey, JoAnn, whatever works, works. ;) I wasn't

knocking you, more like railing against people demanding things that don't make sense. Not you. If everyone was happy? Who can argue with that?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/10/09 3:54am
Msg #284310

Re: Yes

And I had one bounced back once from another state for my cert. not having a wide enough margin. Actually, it was the border around it that was the problem. Naturally, I've changed it since then! (It was a requirement of that particular county - not the state.) Go figure...