Posted by Les_CO on 4/22/09 12:08pm
Msg #285915

POA question for CA Notaries


The Notary had the borrower sign his signature (as on ID) on the signature line above his printed name in cursive, and ‘print’ (in block letters) his wife’s name “Mary Doe” along with the wording “power of attorney”, above her signature line and printed name. He was signing for the wife as her agent with a POA. The Notary said CA law dictates that if the borrowers ‘signature’ in cursive was not clearly legible that he was to ‘print’ the signature. I was under the impression that the agent was to “sign” ‘in cursive’ the wife’s name (Mary Doe) {then his name} by (John Doe) {then print} John Doe, her attorney-in-fact? Any comments?

Reply by PAW on 4/22/09 1:00pm
Msg #285922

I've been taught that for any signature, including POA, trustee, or any official capacity, the signer is to sign, in cursive handwriting, the entire signature as required by the lender and/or title company. For example:

John Doe by Jane Doe, his attorney if fact

John Doe, Trustee of the John Doe and Jane Doe trust dated January 1, 2004

Reply by Les_CO on 4/22/09 2:56pm
Msg #285934

Thanks Paul!
We all know CA is different…IMO some ways better (they require at least some education/background check/bonding) and some ways not so good… But few (who?) know what some of their ‘laws’ actually mean, and how they may apply, or where to go to find out? I sure would like to see a statute delineating what this notary professes. Just to be more clear...To paraphrase: “the notary said CA law dictates that if the ‘agents’ signature in cursive is not clearly legible that the ‘agent’ is to ‘print’ the signature of the person granting them the legal right to act as their ATF.” I’ve (sort of) checked out CA law…and the only thing I can find (CA probate code 4122) says (maybe?) that the POA must be signed/acknowledged in front of 2 witnesses, or a notary, and must contain certain verbiage. Not a thing about the ‘signature’ itself.
I know generally it is really up to the lender as what they require, but IF there some CA law about this I’d like to know.

Reply by Therese on 4/22/09 3:09pm
Msg #285936

Your are correct it is not in notarial law, however it may be a requirement in a statue for POA itself. I have never seen one. When I worked in a financial institution we always required that the names were signed by signature and not printed.

Like you stated in the above and following statement this may be where they are getting it from the word
SIGNED> only thing I can find (CA probate code 4122) says (maybe?) that the POA must be signed/acknowledged.

Reply by janCA on 4/22/09 3:32pm
Msg #285939

There is no such law.

I don't know where this notary got his/her info, but it is incorrect.

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/22/09 3:44pm
Msg #285940

Re: There is no such law.

I agree. There is nothing in the 2009 handbook that specifies "cursive". In fact since a persons signature is whatever they deem it to be, including what looks like printing or even an "x" as a mark you can't specify what type of signature is to be mandated by law.

Reply by Les_CO on 4/22/09 4:11pm
Msg #285945

Re: There is no such law.

Okay…A guy ‘signs’ his name (signature) as he always/normally does…say in cursive…as it is on his ID…but it’s not easily interpreted/recognized as “John Doe” as printed on the documents. Now this guy is the agent/attorney-in-fact by way of a legal POA for/from “Mary Doe”. On HER signature line according to CA law does he “sign” her name (as he does his, in cursive) or does he (as this notary advocates) ‘print’ her name so it’s more legible?
If this guy signs with an X…. does he sign HER name with an X also? Or maybe an XX by X her attorney in fact???
Can you give a POA to someone that is literate?

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/22/09 4:18pm
Msg #285947

Re: There is no such law.

You can give a POA to anyone you choose, be they literate or illiterate.

So far, and for who knows how long, we still have some remaining freedoms.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/22/09 4:20pm
Msg #285948

Re: There is no such law.

I am late to the party, but this is correct, there is no such law. He might be getting his info from that famous notary organization that likes to threaten to sue everyone who "disses" them.

I always have the person sign my book first and I note the signature. Frequently, you can't read it then I ask them if that signature contains a middle initial. I have had Chinese people sign documents in Chinese, as that is their signature. What would that notary do with that? It matches their signature on their California driver's license, but it's definitely not cursive.

Reply by Les_CO on 4/22/09 5:09pm
Msg #285960

Re: There is no such law/Glenn

I’ve been told that some (most professional) Mexicans (citizens of Mexico), and maybe some Mexican/Americans, but not ALL or even most ..Latinos…or second generation Mexican/Americans…sign their ‘signature’ with a ‘sign’ uniquely their own. As do some Orientals/Chinese that use a ‘chop’ as their official signature.

Reply by John_NorCal on 4/22/09 7:55pm
Msg #285991

Re: There is no such law/Glenn

**I’ve been told that some (most professional) Mexicans (citizens of Mexico), and maybe some Mexican/Americans, but not ALL or even most ..Latinos…or second generation Mexican/Americans…sign their ‘signature’ with a ‘sign’ uniquely their own**

Whew! I never heard of anything like that, not in my corner of the Latino world anyway.

But your musing about a POA for a person who normally signs with an X is an interesting one. IF I were to be presented with something like that I think I would sign both ways, as in:
"blah blah blah attorney in fact for Joe Notsobright who normally signs with an X" :-)

Reply by davidK/CA on 4/22/09 9:39pm
Msg #286001

In defense of the disabled

The signature by an "X" may be because of a disability, not because of a lack of intelligence. Apology accepted in advance.

Reply by John_NorCal on 4/22/09 10:03pm
Msg #286005

You're right ---- mea culpa :-( n/m

Reply by Gary_CA on 4/23/09 2:05pm
Msg #286060

There's more that unites us than divides us.

The only signature by mark signing I've ever done was someone with a severe disease, MS I think. But I don't even imagine you meant any harm by your cute comment.


Another thing that unites us, and this is really strange... the LA Dodgers and the St. Louis Cardinals at this particular moment have the exact same record, both leading divisions, both have a second place team just one game behind. I'm sure Dennis would be amazed if he contemplated this.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/22/09 10:46pm
Msg #286012

Re: There is no such law/Glenn

John, FWIW, I've seen it numerous times. The whole concept of a signature is something different in many places. A signature ("firma" is a concept that doesn't involve either cursive or printing for many, and they would give you a blank look if you asked for it one way or the other. (I think I've run across that from people outside of the Hispanic world, as well.)

A "firma" is a unique symbol that each person makes, is able to replicate repeatedly, and it is how they always sign their name in most cases. To ask them to sign loan docs differently would almost be like asking them to sign someone else's name, imo. Naturally, this doesn't apply to everyone, but I've found it to be very common, especially for Spanish signings.

Reply by janCA on 4/22/09 4:42pm
Msg #285956

Re: There is no such law.

Les, if I were doing this, I would sign the name "cursive". Are you saying that the AIF signs his name with an X, therefore he can only sign with an X for the principal? If this is the case, I think I'd be talking with Title and/or the lender.

Reply by Les_CO on 4/22/09 5:06pm
Msg #285959

Re: There is no such law/Jan

No Jan…I was just musing about how to handle someone that signs with an X?
My original query was….. is there some CA law that states that if the ‘agents’ cursive official signature is …unreadable… does he sign the name of person he is acting for in his ‘own hand’ or does CA law state he ‘print’ the signature it so it’s more legible?

And yes, I think we all agree it's the lender that has the last word.

I'm just curious....Maybe I've been doing it wrong? ( I have them sign in their own hand, just as they sign their signature)

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/22/09 10:38pm
Msg #286011

I would do the same. Maybe print whole thing under the line n/m

Reply by CA/Notary on 4/23/09 12:05am
Msg #286014

I totally agree.

Sometimes I wonder where some of these notaries come up with this information. Certainly,
know they do not read the CA notary handbook. I also work as an investigator, had to have a client get some forms notarized, conflict of interest. The client brought them back to me, the stamp is all over printed matter. I ask my client where she went to get this done, she had the notary's card. I called the notary and questioned her. She says, "well if I didn't stamp on the printed matter, I would have had to add a loose certificate." Ya, Think. If you knew to place her stamp correctly she could have gotten it on there. The client tells the notary, "Oh yes, the investigator is also a notary and always buys two stamps, different sizes." Client was rubbing it in. I had to laugh, poor client had to make 2 trips, ended up being a 40 mile drive, each trip. Oh, yes, I copied the notary handbook, highlighted it and sent it with my client. Didn't want her to try and charge my client again, had to make up new docs. Docs came back with a loose certificate.