Posted by CopperheadVA on 4/6/09 7:51pm
Msg #283853

Sign exactly as printed...

OK, I would like to know how to say this more clearly and plainly, because obviously the way I say it is not. I tell borrowers to "sign exactly as your name is printed on the documents" and most understand. But occasionally I get one that still signs the first doc with his nickname (Chris instead of Christopher) or like tonight they will actually PRINT their name on the signature line.

When I asked the guy tonight if that was his signature or printing, he said, "Well you told me to print my name exactly how it was typed!"

If anyone has a good, quick, clear way to say it, please share!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/6/09 7:55pm
Msg #283855

"Sign above your name exactly as it appears (or as it's typed)" - I've not had a problem with this except some still have to ask "John James Doe?" umm..duh...yeah...

If their names are different throughout the package I'll point that out before we start - give them a heads up that we need to watch "how their name appears" as it differs...

Reply by MW/VA on 4/6/09 7:58pm
Msg #283856

If you do a little searching, you will see this was discussed recently. PAW pointed out that a person can sign with "their legal signature", and it cannot be disputed.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/6/09 8:17pm
Msg #283860

But Marilynn, my problem is that sometimes people actually think I told them to PRINT their name, like the guy did tonight! It doesn't happen often but it has happened several times before.

And after the printing discussion, we had a discussion about whether he was signing with his middle initial as the docs indicated he should. He said he didn't. We went round and round about it. He was a very *literal* person and had trouble understanding the concept of signing his name, as his regular signature, but including his middle initial in that. His signature was squiggly - I even offered the old "if you tell me that your signature already includes your middle initial, I will accept that" but he said it didn't. I finally got him to sign his regular signature and include his MI but it shouldn't be that hard to get the instruction across.

Reply by Jim/AL on 4/6/09 10:33pm
Msg #283883

Use this line before signing 1st doc after journal signature

You MUST sign your names exactly how they have them printed. If you are not sure HOW to sign or WHERE to sign please just STOP and ask before you put the ink to the paper.
Then I follow with, if you make a mistake or see any mistakes I or anyone else made, again please just STOP where you are at at let me know...we just need to correct them the appropriate way. Then I many times say I make mistakes also (this makes them realize you are human also), we just need to fix them to avoid holding up funding of your loan.
If you stress the importance to them before signing anything, they will usually get it right...but not always.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 4/6/09 8:04pm
Msg #283857

That's why I like the folks who sign like they failed 5th

grade. They can state that their signature is exactly like what's printed and who am I to disagree? The bonus here in WA is that you sign your license and if it looks close, again who am I to say that's not their signature. If it's good enough for Olympia, it should be good enough for anyone down the line.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/6/09 8:13pm
Msg #283859

Well... you did say 'as printed'....and he retained 'print'... or something. Basically, ya' can't fix stupid. Just keep an eye on 'em. I say "Please initial here...using all 3 of your initials." And they initial 1 page 3 times.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/6/09 8:20pm
Msg #283861

Yeah, I say the three initial thing, too - on the first one I will usually even say the actual three initials they must use, because I found that people would still initial with two even though I just told them to use three.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/6/09 8:36pm
Msg #283862

Re: Sign exactly as printed...LOL, I gave up......

a long time ago. I then decided this was going to be a part of my sheet I give them while Im documenting in my journal. The first side is describing me and my role in the process and the second side is "Signing Guidelines". For some reason, when they read it, it works better than when I would tell them. It works like a charm. Same with the initialing. I put it in writing and I think because its visual its better understood. Before I started using this, I ran into more folks not understanding my verbal directions. There must be something about reading it that makes it stick in their minds.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 4/6/09 8:39pm
Msg #283863

I tell them sign exactly as what is printed, when a doc has or has not the middle initial I point that out too, in the hopes that they do get it. Most do but some people just do not get it!

Reply by Maureen_nh on 4/6/09 9:08pm
Msg #283867

Oh God, I thought I was the only one that had ever happened too. I had a hard time keeping my "professional demeanor" and not launch into hysterics.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/6/09 9:26pm
Msg #283871

Re: Sign exactly as printed... yeah, got it!!

Right! I think it helps to keep in mind that, for many - if not most - borrowers, we're not going to be the center of their focus, as much as we'd like to think they hang on our every word. People just don't listen, for a multitude of reasons, some having to do with personalities, some other circumstances.

Here's just a few examples of types/situations we've probably all run into from time to time:

- He's an attorney/executive/engineer/_____ (fill in the blank) who thinks he knows way more than anyone doing what we do could know, so what could we possibly tell him that he needs to pay attention to?
- His/her mind is still on the forty bazillion problems back at the office.
- Her husband usually handles these things, so why should she bother focusing on what's going on.
- Their kids are making a commotion in the other room.
- Their kids are suddenly too quiet in the other room.
- She still has to get dinner on, check homework, get baths done, prepare lunches for tomorrow (plus the last minute snacks she just found out she's supposed to bring), do three loads of laundry, etc.
- He works with his hands and hates dealing with paperwork.
- She still has to get ready to leave after the signing for her tennis/bridge/Mah Jong game, or shopping, or drinks with the girls, etc., so she wants you to go over everything with her husband, then just show her where to sign so she can get out of there.
- He thinks women should be in the kitchen, barefoot... well, you get the point.
- Her eyes glaze over when it comes to numbers and she finds this stuff boring.
- (S)he is only semi-literate, isn't used to signing his/her name -- and is scared to death of looking foolish. Or printing is all (s)he knows how to do.
- (S)he is preocupied and scared to death about their overall financial situation, and worried about how they're going to pay the credit card bill due tomorrow.
- A friend/neighbor just went through a foreclosure and, even with the refi they are about to sign, they're afraid they're going to be next.
- English is their second (or third...) language, they aren't familiar with our accent and all this technical verbiage, AND a signature is a slightly different concept where they come from.

I'm sure most of you could add a few more to this list. Considering the possibility that in any given situation, more than one of these may apply, it's a wonder we get the packages signed at all!

Reply by trnsa_IL on 4/6/09 10:00pm
Msg #283878

LOL, I'm glad I'm not the only one. This is how I learned I

had to change the way I told people how to initial. "Please use all 3 initials" would result in 1 page with 3 sets of initials. How one leads to the other, I just do not understand, but apparently neither did they.

Reply by PAW on 4/6/09 9:05pm
Msg #283866

"Please sign your name in cursive handwriting the way it is shown beneath the line." Of course, sometimes even that doesn't get the response that is needed.

Reply by BEEJ on 4/6/09 9:10pm
Msg #283868

I tell my signors that all signature need to be signed exactly as typed. I repeat, you sign just like you would a check. I also make sure that I point out middle name spelled out or initial for MI only. No matter what they always seem to mess up at least one page. Go thing for signers copy!

Reply by MichiganAl on 4/6/09 9:16pm
Msg #283869

Actually use their name when you 'splain it to them

If his name is Christopher J Smith, don't just say "sign your name as it appears" or "sign exactly as your name is printed on the documents." Say "please sign your name as Christopher J Smith." I always also add something like "unless your signature is completely illegible." I always pay particular attention to the very first time they sign so I see if they got it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/6/09 9:29pm
Msg #283873

Re: Actually use their name when you 'splain it to them

I find that helps, too. People instinctively focus in on their own name. At the very least, it gets their attention.

Reply by LynnNC on 4/7/09 9:46am
Msg #283907

Alex - I do exactly as you do. n/m

Reply by MistarellaFL on 4/7/09 7:35pm
Msg #284033

Yes, I also advise them to sign as requested even if they

don't normally sign that way.
I have one of those for tomorrow morning. TC says she has tried to speak with the lender
about it (as we are not the signature police), but they are adamant.

I ask them to sign on the line right above their their name, exactly as it is typed, even if they normally don't sign their name this way.

I blame it on the lender all the way, if there is any balking.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 4/6/09 9:54pm
Msg #283877

I actually "spell it out for them." I say for example, "Your lender is asking that you sign today using your first name MI and last name." If they comment on how difficult that will be for some reason, ie "I don't usually sign with my MI that is going to be hard to remember," I will remind them for the first few times. "Sign here with your MI." When we come to an initial page I say "When you initial please use all 3 initials, first, middle, and last." Sometimes when the signer seems to need a little more help than some do I will even say "A.B.C.", using of course their initals. This usaully works, but you can usually tell who needs a little more coaching. All in all, I am thankful for the copy package.

My worst experience was when I was brand new to loan signings, and I had a couple where the wife made it a point to tell me she worked for Countrywide. She made the comment that she was very familiar with the signing of loan docs. Well, while I entered their Id info they looked over the HUD and signed it. They handed it back to me, and I can't remember exactly how they signed, but it was way off. I pulled out the copy for them to sign, and the wife picked up a different color pen than what I had given her so they signed the copy in 2 different colors of ink before I realized it. I learned alot in the early years. Sometimes I even confiscate stray pens that may get in the way. =)

Reply by Teresa/FL on 4/6/09 10:30pm
Msg #283882

I use the journal signature as a "test"

Although Florida doesn't require a journal, I maintain one anyway.

When recording the signer's ID I always show the name exactly how it appears on their ID. Then I make a note of how the name appears on the documents and ask the signer to sign the journal with that version of their name. I always specify that the lender and TC have set the signature requirements, not me, and it is ultimately up to the lender to determine if the documents have been signed to their specifications.

Those scribbled signatures are a lot easier to deal with than those who write legibly. A scribble can be whatever they say it is.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/6/09 10:54pm
Msg #283886

Slap them on the side of the head

Just kidding, but at the end of a long day, that is what it feels like.

One time, after a BO screwed up the 3 rtc in a row, I got a blank piece of paper and made them practice several times. Then I asked them if they are ready to do it right now.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/6/09 11:32pm
Msg #283887

(Haven't read all posts) "...a very literal person..." If

you think of it as teaching, and listen carefully, you can find ways to progress. Assessing the borowers' expertise becomes an art. Pretty soon you develop an introductory verbal roadmap of the signing process depending on that initial determination. That evolves to include particular tips and how-to's to smooth things along. This post is a good example.

I make a joke of it: "...Those darned secretaries <fake eyeroll>, when I was a secretary, I got blamed for alot... Just sign your name like it's printed under the lines, or, if it's not your normal, legal name you sign, can you just stick in the initial/or not? It's like when you put things together out of the box. Make it look like the picture. There's a form later on that can verify the various names they typed under the signature lines, so we're covered. It's up to you."

In this case, the literal interpretation is actually accurate. "...sign EXACTLY..." (empasis mine) In such cases, " do that in cursive, please" may work.

Something like that.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 4/7/09 12:57am
Msg #283890

Re: (Haven't read all posts) "...a very literal person..." If

I guess you can tell what kind of week I have had. Usually I just tell them how to sign their name . Example if its Alfred Newman, but the paperwork wants "Alfred E. Newman", then I tell them "You need to sign these documents "Alfred E. Newman" and that usually gets the job done. However, with a few, you need to get out the 2x4. In the immortal words of Ron White "You can't fix stupid".

Reply by HB/CA on 4/7/09 3:06am
Msg #283893

When I enter their I.D. info in my journal I point to their signature and tell them explicitly to sign my journal the same way. Then I explain that they must use that same signature but match their name exactly as printed on all the docs (if that means including a middle initial or whatever). After the first few docs they seem to get the hang of it. The formality of signing the journal seems to create the mindset for closely attending to the way the docs should be signed.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/7/09 5:52am
Msg #283895

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. One frustrating thing is that the TC docs often have a different version of the signer's name than the lender docs - all that does is confuse the borrower, as they don't realize that some docs were generated by TC and some by the lender. From now on I will take a few extra moments at the beginning of the signing process to go over the correct names to sign and I will ask the signers if they normally sign with their MI? If no, then I will point out that they must sign with it included in their signature (if indicated) and will use their specific name as an example.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who has experienced this! Sometimes it feels like you're the only one who this kind of stuff happens to - it's fun to hear stories of what others have encountered!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/7/09 5:55am
Msg #283896

I had one borrower sign my journal and the docs in Arabic letters! I accepted it as her drivers license was signed the same way. And apparently that is how she had signed the loan apps etc. I did ask her if that was her name in Arabic and she said it wasn't, but that is how she has signed her name for over 20 years.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 4/7/09 6:01am
Msg #283898

Sylvia, I've had some from a particular ethnic group sign their names as what appears to be a fancy symbol. I don't know if it was Arabic or something else. Their signature symbols are always absolutely beautiful and extremely unique.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/7/09 6:58am
Msg #283899

But, she was white American, not Arabic descent. Apparently just decided around 20 years previously to sign her name that way. And she admitted it didn't even translate to her name.
But, it was her legal signature.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/7/09 5:56am
Msg #283897

Not surprised, I do what Alex does ...

I use their name to instruct them. I buy my first clue from how they sign their ID - if I need anything more than first/last name. I never worry about over-signings, either.

If I need a middle initial or name, I take note of their ID signature - if it is as I need it, I ask "Is this how you always sign your name?" If so, cool beans, we're in the home stretch, I tell them "Great, then please don't decide to CHANGE your routine at least until I'm outta here." OK, paraphrased ..

If ID signature is NOT how I need it, then I watch them like a hawk, one page at a time, "Sign 'Alfred EUGENE Newman' right here ..."

I do LOVE how incredibly literal some people are - my favorite was the guy who tried to hand me over $20,000 CASH, because the HUD clearly does state "CASH FROM BORROWER"!

Reply by Patricia/VT on 4/7/09 8:10am
Msg #283903

Re: Not surprised, I do what Alex does ...

When I worked in California, many of the Hispanic men had very beautiful, stylized signatures that were unique and illegible. None was ever rejected. Also I had more than one Chinese client whose signature was in Chinese, as it was on the identification presented. Again, never a problem.

Reply by Sheriden on 4/7/09 11:13am
Msg #283948

Hi, I have another example for you....better yet......Whenever I have a borrower who is of Indian descent....they refuse to write their names as what is typed on the docs. They want to use their first initial and last name. They keep telling "the way it is on the docs is not my real name, that is just my signature"....my real name is (blah, blah, blah) and I will not write it they way it is typed on the form. I have gone through this at least 5 times in the past month. Any suggestions??

Reply by GWest on 4/7/09 11:52am
Msg #283962

I had this happen once and I could not get the elderly gentlemen to understand, he wanted to print his name. I alway say "Sign exactly as your name is typed" and he took me literally. I finally had to cover up his typed name and told him what to sign and then we had no problem, only wish it hadn't taken me an hour to figure this out. He fully understood what he was signing as he spent the first hour fighting with his wife and loan officer about the loan terms. This was the longest signing I have ever had to sit through.