Posted by Maranga Ink Resources on 8/16/09 3:08pm
Msg #300236

Borrowers Signatures

Received instructions from Lender asking to make the borrowers handwriten their names not a signature as it shows on the Driver License, even is not the usual signature.
I asked borrowers to handwritte their names and they did. From their own hands.
Lender called and said I did wrong. Borrowers TYPED their name.
Was absolutely no specification about script or cursive style, just handwrite.
Besides, one never knows if borrowers can do cursive style. If these borrowers did script/typed their names in front of me, is alright with me.
Tell me your opinions, thank you

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/16/09 3:56pm
Msg #300239

What?

this is just a guess.... the DL 'signatures' were in some foreign language and the Lender wanted it 'handwritten in English'... so they 'block-printed' their names in English but the Lender wanted it in cursive (script) writing? That right?

If so, generally, 'handwritten' means script or cursive writing, not printing like a first grade child. I really don't believe anyone would sit through a Borrower putting each piece of paper into a typewriter and TYPING their name--so am disregarding that statement entirely.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 8/16/09 4:07pm
Msg #300243

Print vs. Handwrite vs. Cursive vs. Script

I cannnot count how many times I have asked the Borrower to sign his/her name, and the Borrower asks me, "Do you mean print or handwrite?" It drives me nuts! At first I thought the Borrower was being a wise guy but when it happened again and again I realized it was something serious. Apparently, the environment and a person's age (among other things) influence what a person thinks of when asked to "sign your name". I also think there are people who do not know the definition of cursive writing.

Now I say, "sign your name as if you are signing a check".

Reply by 101livescan on 8/16/09 4:15pm
Msg #300245

Re: Print vs. Handwrite vs. Cursive vs. Script

Exactly, just "sign your name" as though you were giving an Autograph!

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/16/09 4:29pm
Msg #300246

Re: Print vs. Handwrite vs. Cursive vs. Script

Two people I know print for their signature and their driver's license show the printed name. What I usually do is give an example. I'm a visual person myself and visual examples along with directions help me so for a borrower I would get a piece of paper and print something, then write it in cursive and point to the cursive and say, "This [pointing to it] is cursive, sign your name in cursive".

I don't look down on someone for what I feel is so simple a beaver should know it. While they have their weaknesses, somewhere they have strengths that will put others to shame. While they may not understand print vs. handwrite, they may be able to take a car apart blindfolded with their right arm in a sling and their left leg in a cast.

Just guide them as needed, realizing that while there's something we know that they don't, there's something they know that we don't.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/16/09 5:18pm
Msg #300255

Re: Print vs. Handwrite vs. Cursive vs. Script

Should have said: .....they may be able to take a car apart blindfolded with their right arm in a sling and their left leg in a cast and put it back together in perfect order.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/16/09 4:57pm
Msg #300251

Re: Print vs. Handwrite vs. Cursive vs. Script

I've learned that the concept of signing one's name varies greatly with culture and literacy, in addition to the things you mentioned.

Telling them to sign like they sign a check is a good idea to get the concept across, but it might need some follow-up, since many people might sign their name differently than it is shown on the documents, e.g. just signing their first and/or middle initials. (That's just for those that are legible. I love the ones no one can read!) 'Course, fewer and fewer people are using checks these days (especially younger ones), so that idea may not work after a while, either...

Reply by Michelle/AL on 8/16/09 5:17pm
Msg #300254

JanetK_CA, LKT & 101

You made very good points. You're absolutely right about not judging someone because they don't immediately understand what I might be saying. I'm laughing to myself right now as I think back on loan closings when this sort of thing happened and all the confusion:

Me: "Sign your name here"
Them: "Write my name?"
Me: "Um, yes...hand write it"
They print their name.
Me: "No. I meant sign your name - in cursive"
They get frustrated and try again.
I start wondering if I'm speaking a foreign language.

I wish someone could compile video recordings from loan signing memorable moments.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/16/09 5:34pm
Msg #300261

Here's what I think they meant

They wanted the borrower to fully sign every letter of their name. We all know many signatures are completely illegible. John Smith's signature may look like a J, and squiggle, an S, and another squiggle. But they wanted the borrower to sign their full name, J o h n S m i t h. Which is total crap by the way. You don't ask a borrower to change the WAY they sign. It should still look like their signature. If it's a legible signature you just ask them to sign the way it appears on the signature line.

Reply by Gary Boehm on 8/16/09 7:49pm
Msg #300275

Here's what I think they meant

I had a borrower do something like that recently. The first letter of his signature vaguely looked like an "S" and all the rest was a squiggle - not even a break between first and last names. I started thinking that the TC might not accept it but then I rechecked his DL and that's how he signed so I thought "Well, that's his signature" and let him sign away!

Also had the case where no matter how I said "Sign your name", script, cursive, etc. they just did not understand. I wish I had thought of "like you sign a check" - great idea!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/16/09 8:10pm
Msg #300278

Re: Here's what I think they meant

I've run into a good number of people who apparently never learned cursive. They were able to print their name and they signed that way, the same as on their driver licenses. I've found it interesting, though, that many of these people have an actual (unreadable) "signature", i.e. some kind of mark or symbol, that they recreate over and over, as closely as most of us do when we sign our name, yet they say that the people at the DMV told them they had to sign their name... Go figure! Very frustrating, 'cause it takes them lots longer to sign.

Reply by Patricia/VT on 8/16/09 9:34pm
Msg #300286

Re: Here's what I think they meant

I have had clients who signed with Chinese charatcers, and as it matched their signatures on their passports and driver licences, I didn't argue. I have had many hispanic men in California who have elaborate, distinctive and illegible signatures, almost like a cartouche. I have had illiterate clients who sign everything in carefully printed letters, as they had signed their IDs, and I have had clients whose signatures are totally illegible. If they tell me it says what it is supposed to say, I accept it. In a decade of signings in California and Vermont, I have never had any complaints

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/17/09 1:16am
Msg #300291

5 Star Post, Patricia/VT. A legal signature is a legal

signiture, is a legal signature.

Some "instructions" make me laugh. One signing, years ago, I read her the "instructions." When I finished, we looked at each other and laughed. She happened to be a federal agent. She said, as she scratched out her legal signature, " it matches everything I've ever signed; it's my legal signature." "They don't call it a 'signature' for nothing," I replied.

One time, when a Mrs. Borrower had to resign a doc to include her middle initial at her workplace; after I was down the road, I got a call from the SS (we had immediately faxed the re-signed doc), saying the TC wanted her to re-re-sign because her "J" didn't have the exact same loop. I said; "~you~ call her and tell her that. I witnessed her signature, and that's that as far as I'm concerned."

"Signature Police." Hmfft.

The point made earlier about cultural differences is also an important one. I love the tip: sign it as you would a contract (check, legal paper, etc.).

This is a good subject to re-live every once in a while. Thanks to the OP.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/17/09 3:48am
Msg #300293

Re: Here's what I think they meant

I completely agree with you and Susan on this. In fact, I think "cartouche" is probably the best descriptor I've heard for some of these signatures, so far (not that it will be helpful at the table... ) Some of them are nearly works of art!

Reply by Gary Boehm on 8/17/09 8:18am
Msg #300294

Here's what I think they meant

Hee hee had to go through two dictionaries to find cartouche! Thank you - increased my vocabulary by one word! Now... where else would I use that word???

Reply by jba/fl on 8/17/09 8:55am
Msg #300299

crossword puzzles n/m

Reply by PAW on 8/17/09 9:56am
Msg #300311

Jewelry (especially pendants) n/m

Reply by parkerc/ME on 8/17/09 12:24pm
Msg #300338

Re: Here's what I think they meant

Some of the sigs I've seen may as well have been in a foreign language, as indecipherable as they were. Just scrawls . . may as well have marked with an "x" . . at least you could find the letter X in it! Many years ago a handwriting expert told me that the signatures like that which are basically just scrawls are easier to forge than a legible script signature.

Reply by Margaret Paddock on 8/17/09 12:38pm
Msg #300350

Re: Signatures

I just did a signing and they printed out a formal name for the borrower. The escrow called me and told me to have him sign the short version of his name on all docs as that is how he took title.
I did have him do that, but his signatures were so scribbled that no one would ever know what he wrote.
I hope it closes as I did not have him print the name below the 2nd signature. Never thought of doing that. Oh well, their error as they drew the docs up wrong.

I do agree that if the name is printed anywhere on the document that is the signature they should use. If it changes from one page to another so should the signature. If one initial looks different it's probably because they are getting tired so the handwriting changes. Mute point. The notary witnessed all of the signatures so it should be accepted.

Sometimes I think the signing companies get so picky because they really don't know what our job is and are afraid of loosing business. They need to be educated, but their is no requirement for them. Me, I prefer dealing directly with title/escrow.

Reply by Maranga Ink Resources on 8/17/09 4:07pm
Msg #300415

Re: Signatures

I wanted to copy and past the instructions:
4. Insure the borrowers sign ALL loan documents exactly as their names are typed on
the documents, even if this is not their usual signature.

And I found the following link about Handwritten signatures, there are several ways to handwritte
Interesting, even the page looks like more for a toddler.
http://www.drawyourworld.com/dnealian.html

Thanks to all
Dora