Posted by JustANotary on 8/6/09 8:48pm
Msg #299083

Signing with an X. Bank wants witnesses to sign statement

I have a borrower that is blind. She can only sign with an X. We had two witnesses there to say they saw her sign with the X. There was a POA there to sign most of the docs, but the borrower needed to sign the note & DOT as trustee. The bank now wants the witnesses to sign a statement saying that the borrower is incapable of sight & has had the document (the note & DOT) read to her to her satisfaction. I am to notarize this statement.

Of course we do not add the witnesses names in the notary field of the DOT, this is a completely separate statement that the bank is requiring. It seems strange to ask the witnesses to sign a notarized statement. The purpose of the witness as far as a notary goes is just to say they saw the borrower make the mark. I personally think that it would make more sense for the borrower to sign a statement like that. And why make a statement like that at all? I can see, no one has asked me to sign a statement that I have read the documents to my satisfaction. We know that people do not usually read all 130 or so pages of the refinance documents.

Reply by Becca_FL on 8/6/09 9:08pm
Msg #299085

I don't know what CA requires, but this is what I use....

in FL. It's posted on my website and I have used this a few times with stroke patients that were fine in the head, but their body would not cooperate.

http://floridasnotary.com/resources.aspx

Click on Signing by Mark Acknowledgment OR Jurat for Signing by Mark

Make appropriate changes to cert, but this gives you and idea. ALSO, check your manual to make sure this is acceptable in CA.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 8/6/09 9:11pm
Msg #299086

It looks like they don't want her to say all 130 pages

What they want is a CYA to say she understands the rate, terms and what the DOT calls for her to do. I understand this, but I do wonder why they didn't include this at the first appointment.

Reply by John Schenk on 8/6/09 9:41pm
Msg #299090

"I have a borrower that is blind. She can only sign with an X. We had two witnesses there to say they saw her sign with the X. There was a POA there to sign most of the docs, but the borrower needed to sign the note & DOT as trustee. The bank now wants the witnesses to sign a statement saying that the borrower is incapable of sight & has had the document (the note & DOT) read to her to her satisfaction. I am to notarize this statement."

Simply sounds like an extra charge to me. If it's out of town I'd charge my trip fee as you did the first time you got it signed. It's THEIR job to accommodate the handicapped, not ours. We accommodate the handicapped by coming to their home. The documents needed for that accommodation are not ours to draft. They send them, we'll get them signed. If they fail to send them, and they definitely should have done so in the edocs, then there is absolutely no reason not to charge them for the extra trip.

I wouldn't have any problem notarizing the subsequent document you say they want you to get signed with the witnesses, but I wouldn't do it for free.

JJ

Reply by Becca_FL on 8/6/09 10:43pm
Msg #299094

I've done closings for blind, deaf and have never...

been asked for anything but an ack or a jurat by the person signing. As long as I read docs to a blind person or have a translator for a deaf person...I'm good. Fortunately, I personally knew the deaf person and the blind folks. It can be done, don't restrict yourself. Read your state statrues

Reply by JustANotary on 8/6/09 11:04pm
Msg #299098

Re: I've done closings for blind, deaf and have never...

That is part of my feelings on this, I just did a refinance & I did not have to sign a form saying that I had read the docs to my satisfaction. How can we be asking a blind person to sign more than is required of everyone else. And it isn't even the blind person that is signing this, it is the two people who are just there to say they saw the borrower sign with a mark.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/7/09 12:54am
Msg #299104

<<<It seems strange to ask the witnesses to sign a notarized statement. I personally think that it would make more sense for the borrower to sign a statement like that. And why make a statement like that at all?>>>

Why do you care? The bank is loaning the money and their legal department probably required it. I did a signature by mark for a Durable POA for a lady whose elderly mother was hospitalized. This lady's tremors were so bad, it took everything for her to make the X. I followed up with the daughter and learned that the bank's legal dept also required from her doctor a list of ALL the meds prescribed for the mom, especially those for the tremors she had. Ironically it was a catch 22 - some of the meds CAUSED the tremors while others were to CALM the tremors. Remain impartial. The bank knows what's it's doing.

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 1:08am
Msg #299105

I agree with most of your post, that I should remain impartial (unless it violates notary procedure) but then you go on to say, "the bank knows what its doing" Ha, with the mess we are now in, not many believe the banks always know best...

If I was blind, I would be concerned that I was being held to any different standard than any other borrower. Once again, borrowers are not asked to sign a document saying that they have read the note or DOT to their satisfaction. I have signed with people who were illiterate, they do not have to sign a statement that someone read the documents to them to their satisfaction. Why would a blind signer be singled out.

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/7/09 5:45am
Msg #299106

Well, a blind signer can't see what she signed--so, theoretically blind signer could have been 'told' she was signing nearly anything, right? Bank simply wants proof, via witnesses, that signer knew the contents of what she signed. Seems like a logical CYA to me.

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 8:03am
Msg #299109

Blind being singled out

I still ask, what about someone who is illiterate, what about someone who speaks English but does not read English. Why are they only making an issue of this for a blind client?

Reply by MW/VA on 8/7/09 8:24am
Msg #299114

Re: Blind being singled out

I think you're reading too much into this and getting close to UPL. Whether you agree with the request or not is not an issue unless you're being asked to do something illegal. I don't see a problem here.

Reply by PAW on 8/7/09 8:33am
Msg #299120

Re: Blind being singled out

Given most notary statutes, a notary may not be able to notarize a signature for an illiterate person unless that person is able to comprehend and understand what it is they are signing or swearing to. Some states have extensive instructions for handling notarizations in special circumstances, such as you mentioned, including blind signers. Those instructions bode well for the entire signing agent process as well as the notarial piece of it. The blind are not being singled out here, it's just that that is the circumstances in this particular situation.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/7/09 12:26pm
Msg #299150

<<<....but then you go on to say, "the bank knows what its doing" Ha, with the mess we are now in, not many believe the banks always know best.....>>>

I'm addressing the blind borrower situation ONLY, not the entire banking industry. I repeat - the bank knows what's it's doing, they have a legal dept. I agree with the other poster stating you are reading too much into this. Unless the bank is asking you to do something illegal - which it it isn't - take care of it and move on.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 8/7/09 11:05am
Msg #299128

Don't know about CA, but IL NP act provides that...

a NP shall not take the acknowlegment of any person who is blind
until the the NP has read the instrument to such person.
Act does not define the word "blind"
Don't recall ever having a signing with a blind signer.
Not to make lite of blindness. but I do not believe that it is
possible to read a standard mortgage out loud, without either the
reader of the listener falling into a deep sleep.
Also not sure how to establish a fair signing fee for a loan
signing involving a blind signer.
Would be far more practical, to have the blind borrower sign a POA
to a trusted party.

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 11:33am
Msg #299133

Re: Don't know about CA, but IL NP act provides that...

Wow, reading the DOT out loud could be used as a form of torture, Ha! This bank is having the witnesses sign that "because the borrower is incapable of sight" How do we know that? Do we guess, go by her statement? I have not seen any doctor report. A POA is signing most of the docs, they insist on the borrower signing the note & DOT because she is the trustee of her trust.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/7/09 11:44am
Msg #299139

Wasn't there something in the CA notary rules

that precludes notarizing for the blind? Why am I remembering this being discussed before. Maybe I'm remembering something else but seems to me I remember hearing that it either can't be done in CA or it's very strictly limited and regulated....especially when it affects real property transactions and status of title.

I'm probably wrong.

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 11:52am
Msg #299142

Re: Wasn't there something in the CA notary rules

OK, this is what the NNA says:

Your signer is blind and cannot read the document you’ve been asked to notarize. Is it OK to proceed? Yes.

As the Notary, you just need to be sure the signer knows exactly what he or she is signing. For example, you might ask the client to tell you the document’s title or explain what type it is, along with its general purpose. If there is a question about this, it’s fine for you to read the document out loud. Some states, in fact, require just that when notarizing for blind signers, so check your local laws.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/7/09 12:09pm
Msg #299146

Re: Wasn't there something in the CA notary rules

CA rules and NNA rules sometimes vary...

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 12:25pm
Msg #299149

Re: Wasn't there something in the CA notary rules

I was able to confirm that this IS true in CA. We must "verify the signer is aware of the contents of the document they are signing"

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/7/09 1:02pm
Msg #299154

Okay...if this is true my next question is...

unless the document is written in braille, how do you know they're aware of the contents without reading the document to them or having it read to them?

I'm probably reading more into this than is necessary too...

Reply by JustANotary on 8/7/09 1:18pm
Msg #299158

Re: Okay...if this is true my next question is...

I am not sure how aware any of the borrowers are. When I did my refinance, I did not read much. I was as aware as I wanted to be. I believe that is true of the borrowers I work with. I show them what they are signing, they ask questions if they like. They have 3 more days to look things over & ask additional questions.... I believe they know what they want to know, I believe they are not being mislead or coerced, they know they have a right to cancle. I know most never read all of the docs, & neither do I when I sign loan packages.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/7/09 2:16pm
Msg #299170

Re: Okay...if this is true my next question is...

"I am not sure how aware any of the borrowers are." Really...you're kidding, right?

I'm going to step back on this now...this post opens up an entire new discussion that I just don't have the energy for. All I'll say is sighted borrowers certainly have more opportunity to "read" their docs than a non-sighted borrower does - and you're notarizing their signature (Or *X*) - you need to know they're aware of what they're doing - I'm curious why she had to sign with an X at all - was something else going on there? Again...another whole new discussion.

I still seem to remember something about CA and the blind...I really wish someone would clear this up for me...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/8/09 2:32am
Msg #299239

Re: Wasn't there something in the CA notary rules

Where did you find that? If it's in the Handbook from the SOS, please advise what page, because I don't remember seeing anything that specifically addresses the blind. There ARE, as you know, procedures for signing by mark, which you followed.

I do believe that as a general part of notary ethics, it's a good idea to feel satisfied to some extent that the borrower is aware of what they are signing, but I feel it's a misconception that it's a legal requirement in CA. In fact, the same is apparently true for determining a signer's mental capacity to understand what they are signing for whatever reason. I've checked this with the office of the SOS and was told that the law doesn't expect us to have the necessary training to discern someone's capacity. (Doesn't mean we shouldn't use our best judgment and whatever common sense we can muster.)

As for your situation, I'd take it one step further than what LKT said. I personally think it's irrelevant whether or not the bank "knows what they are doing". They are pretty much the ones making the rules when it comes to lending out their money and as long as they aren't asking something that runs contrary to state law, they basically have the right to ask for whatever they want. Whether or not what they are asking for conflicts with the state's Fair Lending Act - which may be your concern - is not an issue that we should be getting into the middle of. We are only responsible to see that notary law is followed.

Also, it sounds to me that in the form you mentioned it's the witnesses that have the obligation to determine that the blind signer knew what (s)he was signing. Your only responsibility in that case is to ID them, administer the oath, watch them sign and get their signature, etc. in your journal. End of story... imho