Posted by mwm143 on 8/11/09 8:15pm
Msg #299554

Your opinion

I accepted a closing tonight from a SS I've never worked with. Closing is for 8:30. I receive two emails with docs. The first email has only 1 page. The second has 65. Cool...another small package for the day I think to myself. (had a 61 page pkg earlier). I rarely go through packages before I leave assuming that when they tell me they've sent a complete package then it's complete. I arrive at the closing and realize there is no Note, DOT, etc. I call and the gal apologizes for not scanning properly. She says there's 50 more pages. The borrowers offer to print but she insist on legal paper. I leave to go back to the office to print the rest of the package. On my way I call the SS and advise there will be an additional $25 trip fee. She won't agree until she talks to her manager in the morning. I tell her that I will not be returning without written confirmation of the trip fee. She reluctantly agrees but says they won't use me again. (I've never even heard of them in my 5 years of signing). I get back to my office and the additional package is 95 pages!

Question is should I have asked for a trip fee?

Reply by CF on 8/11/09 8:21pm
Msg #299555

You really need to question this? I would have required a lot more than $25.00 for their error. Actually, I would have signed the package and let them figure it out. They could have gotten someone else to go back out for an additional 95 pages and only $25.00- yeah right!!!

Seriously, they would have had to pay another Notary a full fee for thier error.

Reply by sue_pa on 8/11/09 8:25pm
Msg #299557

I also don't go through what I print but I certainly would have noticed a missing Note and Mortgage. We're not mind readers but some things should jump out at us.

That said, preaching to the choir , if everything wasn't so rushed, maybe the sender would have realized the scan was wrong and maybe the notary printing would have taken a few minutes to flip through the docs.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 11:50am
Msg #299607

I'm curious if you don't go through the docments you print then how you would have noticed a missing note?? Certainly not before you arrived for the closing. When I sat down at the table that's the first document I searched for and realized within 1 minute that the package was incomplete. I do review the critical docs with the borrowers before the signing ever begins. Doesn't everyone??

Reply by PAW on 8/12/09 1:40pm
Msg #299615

I "pre-package" the docs for presentation to the borrowers, as well as searching for the critical docs and compliant notary blocks. I still run into a lot of Mortgages that reference "Exhibit 'A'" and it is missing. That's probably the error (omission) that happens the most. Second, invalid notary blocks: missing important elements or acknowledgments where jurats are required**. With the major slowdown, it's not difficult to preview and pre-package.

** Florida law specifically states that a notary cannot take an acknowledgment of execution if an oath is required. F.S. §117.03

Reply by sue_pa on 8/12/09 7:43pm
Msg #299654

I don't "go through" docs like others do ... flagging, etc. My order is different than many others ... I do the Note, the payment letter, Mortgage and then everything else as they show up. I pull these few to the top most times. As PAW says, we're not that busy any more so printing and dashing has slowed down to a breathable level.

As for your "doesn't everyone?" comment, I don't. I get a signature on the documents as we go through the package.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 9:06pm
Msg #299667

What are you talking about Sue? You stated:

"I also don't go through what I print but I certainly would have noticed a missing Note and Mortgage. We're not mind readers but some things should jump out at us"

Either you go through them or you don't. Your posts I've noticed, offer very little relativity to the rest of the signing world as you seem to operate in a totally different arena all your own.

Just IMHO.

Reply by sue_pa on 8/13/09 7:51am
Msg #299690

I don't go through page by page as many seem to do spending 1/2 hour "prepping" docs. I know most loan packages and know where the Note and Mortgage are located. I pull them to the top. I'd have no idea if an Occupancy Affd. were missing most times.

As to "operate in a totally different arena" I certainly do operate differently than the majority of the posters on these boards ... you've also never seen me post in the "I don't have any work" threads. One of my main differences is that so may think they work for themselves ... I work for my clients.

One of my major pet peeves with e-docs would have eliminated your problem completely ... stop scanning the docs ... send us the lender link ... it's clean, it's neat, it prints quickly and docs don't get missed or scanned improperly.

Reply by PAW on 8/13/09 8:24am
Msg #299697

>>> One of my major pet peeves with e-docs would have eliminated your problem completely ... stop scanning the docs ... send us the lender link ... it's clean, it's neat, it prints quickly and docs don't get missed or scanned improperly. <<<

Boy, wouldn't it be nice to get an email with two links or one link and one attachment, where one link would be the lender docs (from the lender!) and the other link or attachment would be the title docs, including final HUD and Exhibit "A"? I guess I can wish all my clients were the same.

Reply by sue_pa on 8/13/09 8:38am
Msg #299702

I had one the other week ... 4 e-mails, one of which included 12 attachments. That's just asking for a problem on their end or on mine.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/13/09 9:19am
Msg #299712

The original opinion question was if others would have charged a trip fee based on the scenerio presented. It was not a question about how to handle documents. I went back and scanned the last few days topics and the responses and there seems to be a pattern to many of your responses. They don't necessarily relate to the topic at hand but moreso just about you and your circumstances and they always seem to be superior to everyone else. For instance, a person posted about their experience with a particular RM loan app. The very first line of your multi paragraph response was "I don't know what you're talking about". So why did you respond? And at least once every other day you find a way to work it into your post how busy you are. That's fantastic. I'm very busy as well. So are others. We just don't find it necessary to blow our own horn. And yes m'am I too have seen others concerned about their market areas and want to check the pulse of other areas but posting that work has slowed and each time you can bet money that there will be a post from you blowing your horn. But please keep it up. It's definitely a constant here and I've actually started to look forward to it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/13/09 3:51pm
Msg #299838

Yeah, I look forward to sue_pa's posts, too, but from a very different perspective than you. I probably learn as much from her as I do anyone else on this board. I don't think sue_pa cares a whit about "blowing [her] own horn". The point is that whatever she is doing is working and she's managed to run her business very successfully, even in a down market. I don't care what kind of tone is used, I don't care if it's sarcastic, short, etc... Same is true for a few other frequent posters here. If there's value to be gained, I don't care what kind of package it comes in. And I've been on this board for enough years to have a pretty good idea who is worth paying attention to and who isn't.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/11/09 8:31pm
Msg #299560

Remember, this is my opinion.

Since I always look at my packages for completion, names being correct, whether spouse or not and the number of RTC's which are sometimes to up to par, deeds which need witness and so on, I haven't had that problem. I have had problems with packages when I didn't check, so it was a learning experience from which I did learn.

Mistakes happen on both ends, it is how you deal with or handle them that makes the big difference.

If I had received an email stating "Here are all the docs" and then found something missing after I left for the appt., I probably would mention this and ask, but most likely I would slap my forehead and utter some obscenity at my own stupidity for not checking. It is so easy while docs are printing to scan through them on the screen.

If you got that email, and since you already asked, and since you have not worked for them before and you may not need their business in the future - lots to consider.

Reply by John Schenk on 8/11/09 8:35pm
Msg #299563

Agree completely. Were you lookin over my shoulder? LOL n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 8/11/09 8:38pm
Msg #299564

Excuse me - Mr. 2 mins. later? NOOOO. LOL! n/m

Reply by John Schenk on 8/11/09 8:41pm
Msg #299565

Re: Excuse me - Mr. 2 mins. later? NOOOO. LOL!

LMAO I think we said about the same thing, just used some different words. I would have been done sooner but my fiancee was IMing me...darned cell phones anway. LOL

JJ

Reply by John Schenk on 8/11/09 8:33pm
Msg #299561

First of all that's one reason I go through the entire packet and fill out all I can before I ever go to the signing table. For one thing, it saves me face time with the borrowers. Most importantly, however, I see what docs are there and can tell if the main docs are missing. Some folks print mobile, but for them it's not an issue as they have the ability to print mobile anyway.

Don't know how far the trip was, but if you'd normally charge $25 for that trip, I'd probably have charged it too. You don't speak of the print fee so you evidently thought it would be a bigger packet when you took the closing than 61 pages.

It would also depend on what the email said when she sent the docs. If it said "Here's all the docs for your closing," and she skipped 50 pages, I'd have charged the extra fee too. However, if you checked them out, and they're a good company that you may get more business out of you might waive it, since you should have caught that those docs weren't in there.

Not really enough information for my opinion...just thinkin out loud. If it happened to me, I'd probably blame myself for not seeing there was no Note and no Deed, etc., and probably just eat it.

JJ

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/11/09 8:51pm
Msg #299566

This is why it's "live & learn" and not "learn and then live

I always stack my 'original' pkg while my copy pkg is printing, that's just my M/O. The only time I did NOT do that - I was so rushed, I printed and ran. Got to the signing (of course not nearby), and both pkgs had glitched at the 15th page, everything after that was blank.

Nope, I have MY M/O, and I stick to it. It takes me no more than 3 min to stack a pkg and I can do that while the copy pkg is printing. I have faith in my system, and it does me well - it's only when I deviate from my system that *stuff* happens. If the pkg is late ...well, the pkg is late, and another 3 minutes isn't going to kill anyone.

I don't speed (learned the hard way), I don't put off getting my SELF ready first, and I don't forego stacking my pkg.

Reply by Kay/IL on 8/11/09 9:10pm
Msg #299571

If the SS sent you an e-mail along with the package stating it was a complete package, I would take it as such. After arriving to the closing and you realize that documents were missing, I'd ask the SS about the missing documents and listen to what they have to say before making my statement or proposal.

It's been a few years since something like that has happened to me (a RTC was missing in a packet), but the SS I was working with was more than gracious and offered me a full return trip and print fee to get the job done without me bringing it up.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/11/09 9:27pm
Msg #299572

I agree with Renee's overall viewpoint. I review the loan package before heading to the appt. I also carry extra letter and legal paper in my car in case the TC calls me while I'm enroute to the appt to say they have additional items to email to the borrower (the brwr may not have legal paper on hand). Should you have asked for a trip fee? In my opinion, No. While SS/TC's try to blame the Notary for all sorts of things they claim we "should have caught or known about", I do believe the Notary should at LEAST check for a complete pkg. You risk the problems created plus other greater problems when you print and go without checking for ALL the docs.

Someone said on another forum that they printed and left without checking the docs and arrived at the signing with docs for a different sheduled signing appt.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/11/09 11:42pm
Msg #299576

In my opinion...

No, you shouldn't ask for an additional trip fee - this one's on you. It only takes a couple of minutes to go through a package to see if all the important docs are there. I always stack them in the order I want them presented and signed, so I know immediately if something important is missing. We all know what ASSUME means... Never assume you've got it all just because they said so, verify it before you leave.

Showing up at a closing without a note or a DOT is inexcusable. If the SS comes back later and says they have some disclosures they forgot to send, that's a different story and deserves an additional trip fee. But missing the really important docs because you ASSUMED they were in the package and then just printed and ran ? I don't see any way you can defend that.

Besides, without looking at the docs, how do you even know you have the right docs??

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 10:14am
Msg #299601

Re: In my opinion...

I know I have the correct package when I look at the first page to input the address in my navigation before I leave.

And I really pressed for the addtional fee after she admitted she had not properly scanned the package but thought I should accept full responsbility for not checking. It was all in the attitude I guess and I knew at this point that it would be 9:45 before I returned getting me back in at 11:00. When I left at 8:00 I thought I had another small package signing and would be back by 9:30. Again, state of mind coupled with a gal who sounded like she was 12 speaking to me like I was 10!

Live and learn.....

Reply by 101livescan on 8/11/09 11:59pm
Msg #299577

she or her machine screwed up, not your fault, she needs to make it right. I went to a signing once and the printer ran out of paper, I ended up with no note, TIL, RTC....what kind of signing is that.

I had to make a second trip. Because it was 40 miles each way (160 miles), I got paid twice on this one.

Reply by 101livescan on 8/12/09 12:03am
Msg #299578

I should mention, this was an early Sat am appt, I stopped by escrow to pick up the package and dashed up the mountain, I had no idea I didn't have all the ingredients. The escrow co ate it...wasn't that I was printing it out, they did, then made the borrrower's copy for me.

Reply by MichiganAl on 8/12/09 2:15am
Msg #299580

Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes

Sorry, it takes 30 seconds to make sure there's a HUD, TIL, mortgage, note. Miscellaneous docs are almost impossible to keep track of, but the essentials, you don't leave home without em. They certainly messed up, but if it were me, I would have felt just as responsible. I would not have asked for a trip fee.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 8/12/09 10:03am
Msg #299598

Re: Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes. Absolutely agree.

Just like the American Express commercial . . don't leave home without them. . . HUD, TIL, mortgage/DOT, note, RTC. Check each page as the printer spits them out to be sure they are there and it won't take you any time. And if any of those were among what were missing, the return trip should've been on you.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 10:06am
Msg #299600

Re: Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes. Absolutely agree.

Do you actually stand by your printer and take each page off one at a time to inspect?

Reply by parkerc/ME on 8/12/09 3:45pm
Msg #299632

Re: Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes. Absolutely agree.

Yep (I sit by it since it's right behind my computer desk) . . . at least for the lender's copy. That way I can catch where there might be a misfeed or print screwup. And it's not like it takes a long time to print. A little extra attention invested up front saves time later. . . especially if you see that the critical docs aren't in the package as it's printing. Just call me OC!

Reply by Art_MD on 8/12/09 6:00pm
Msg #299648

Re: Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes. Absolutely agree.


While the docs are printing, I page thru the docs on my screen.

Art

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/13/09 4:01am
Msg #299687

Re: Did they screw up? Yes. Did you? Yes. Absolutely agree.

I'm with you on this one. I just do a quick scroll through to look for anything out of the ordinary while docs are printing, but I don't go through every page. I've found quite a few things that way, though.

Typically, I look at how many pages the package is and if there's something missing, sometimes I can tell just by the feel (for example, doesn't seem like 92 pages), and sometimes things just jump out, like misspellings of names, cities, etc. Like sue_pa said, if the HUD, Note or DOT is missing, it's going to be pretty obvious. I also try look for whether or not there's a trust involved, and if there are any other deeds or special circumstances, like another person needing to be there. This is most of the time. If I'm rushing to make a short notice appt. (or dealing with late docs), it may just be a cursory visual scan.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 10:03am
Msg #299599

50/50 split on opinions

Thanks for the feedback. My normal trip fee is $50. I only asked for $25 because I did feel there was a shared responsibility. While sometimes I do sort and rearrange a package, sometimes I don't. Especially the smaller ones. I can't ever recall a instance where all of the crucial docs were omitted.

The agreed fee was $90 for a single refi. The total package in the end was 166 pages. Lots of notarizations, 3 sets of RESPA docs, 3 different ID pages and the dreaded Statement of Identity. So even with the additional $25 they still got a bargain!

Reply by Regal/NC on 8/12/09 10:22am
Msg #299602

Re: 50/50 split on opinions

IMO

I find it's always best to review and verify all critical docs and stack them according to my preference for presentation. It's more professional and less time consuming when I have reviewed and verified all pertinent forms and information is contained within the package. Fortunate for you the location wasn't to far from your office.

Reply by LisaWI on 8/12/09 11:30am
Msg #299605

Re: 50/50 split on opinions

Im with the 50% that say they wouldnt of charged for this.

Team player comes to mind when I see these kind of situations. For a completed and successful signing, I look at myself as a second or third set of eyes to make sure the loan goes as smoothly as possible. I consider myself equally responsible for making sure those critical docs are there.

My opinion is no, I wouldnt of charged extra for this particular situation. But as Alex had stated, if there were other docs missing that we have no idea if they belong in the package or not, then yes, I would of charged extra for both the trip and the extra print.

So from all our responses and this experience you have had, what do you think now? Will you be checking the packages before you leave, or do you feel if its not your responsibility to make sure those critical docs are there?

Learning from what happens in this business is one of our most valuable assets to being successful. Going beyond the call of duty isnt instant gratification, but will reward itself 10 fold in the future.

Reply by mwm143 on 8/12/09 11:46am
Msg #299606

Re: 50/50 split on opinions

Having closed over 3,000 loans sucessfully and not being to recall a single instance where all the critical docs were left out of the package, I can honestly say that I doubt I will change the way I handle loan packages. Sometimes when time allows I review them before the closing and sometimes I don't. Depends on the circumstances. Regardless of whether they left out 1 or 95 a second trip would have been necessary to complete the package. Perhaps they will revisit their handling of documents to avoid this from happening again.

If it were one a regular client then yes, I would have handled it differently. But seeing how the email address they had on file for me was one I used 5 years ago when registering with companies coupled with my never working for them in the past, says alot in itself about how much business they have in this area.

I do appreciate your feedback. And just a note, it's "wouldn't have" and not "wouldnt of".

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/12/09 2:33pm
Msg #299628

Re: 50/50 split on opinions

<<<....I can honestly say that I doubt I will change the way I handle loan packages.>>>

Then if you plan to continue the "print-and-go" methology for the future, I hope you carry with you a laptop, air card, legal/letter paper and portable laser printer - just in case.

<<<Having closed over 3,000 loans sucessfully and not being to recall a single instance where all the critical docs were left out of the package,....>>>

That's where the Notary will pay dearly.......complacency....it "could" be your downfall - you miss critical docs again and the signing doesn't happen because the brwrs have a plane to catch and no time for you to leave for your office to print the critical docs. Oh, and their rate lock expires at midnight and it's already 10pm. Good luck on that one!

<<<Perhaps they will revisit their handling of documents to avoid this from happening again.>>>

Maybe they will and maybe they won't. You can only fix YOU.

<<<If it were one a regular client then yes, I would have handled it differently.>>>

I treat new clients well - they could become another one of my regular clients.

Reply by Seeker/GA on 8/12/09 8:10pm
Msg #299656

Re: 50/50 split on opinions

I am sorry you had this experience. The sad part is that borrower was also impacted by the error. You had to make a decision in a short timeframe. I am sure that you made the choice that you thought was reasonable and fair given the circumstances. Thank you for sharing your experience so that we can all learn from it and be prepared in the event that we are faced with a similar situation. One of the take-aways that we should all have is that at a minimum, we need to make sure we check for key documents prior to going to a closing. This is a good practice regardless of how familiar we are with a signing or title company. We are all human and make mistakes. As signing agents we have all been pushed to the wire more than a few times to print last minute documents. If we are not given enough time to review the documents (especially if the closing is far away and would be inconvenient to redo) then I think it is prudent to call the company and tell them you are going to need an additional half hour to check to make sure everything is there. I think this would be particularly important with a signing company that you are not familiar with. Best wishes with future closings and thank you for sharing.