Posted by Gary Boehm on 12/2/09 10:27am
Msg #312765

New HUD - We lost out

This wasn't covered in the discussion below so I am posting this separately. No one else seems to have noticed but we as Notaries lost out on the new form. I guess it is because we don't have "representation" with the powers that create these things.

Now I know people are going to slam this and say it was not the least bit important anyway but I tell you what - when I knew I was dealing directly with the Title company (and not just an SS) I would always at least ask for this and a good enough percentage of the time I got it!

I am referring to what USED to be Line 1106: Notary Fees! I went over the sample form sent to me by LSI and Line 1106 is something else now, I don't see Notary Fees anywhere! As I said, whenever I was negotiating my fees with Title, I would then ask "Would you please put that down on line 1106 for me?" and they might be surprised but sometimes they would do it. I just figured it might give me a little extra leverage to get paid if I needed it.

Sigh... but now it gone...

Reply by RobinS/MI on 12/2/09 10:30am
Msg #312766

Notary Fees are to be included in Section 1100 on line 1101. With all other fees. Just not broken down as such.

Reply by Gary Boehm on 12/2/09 10:34am
Msg #312768

New HUD - We lost out

Exactly my point. We used to have "our own" line. Now we are just part of a lump.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 12/2/09 10:35am
Msg #312769

yes..If the appraisers have a line why can't we!

Reply by RobinS/MI on 12/2/09 10:37am
Msg #312770

I don't know about you I don't like sitting at the table and having someone see my fee listed?

Reply by Regal/NC on 12/2/09 10:46am
Msg #312772

On-Off New HUD - No problem 4 me

as long as a have a confirmation with MY fee and conditions agreed too.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 12/2/09 10:48am
Msg #312775

I'm smiling. Robin, when my fee has been listed on the

HUD I would sometimes get the comment from the Borrowers, "Is that ALL they're paying you?!"

More than once I've been told from a homeowner that they expected the notary fee to be the same as the appraisal fee.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/2/09 11:46am
Msg #312798

Why not?

I have mixed feelings on this. As a borrower, I want to know where my money is going. If I'm paying for it, I have every right, even, to know what I am paying the vendors who are handling my loan.

Personally, I don't really care if there is a dedicated line or not, I would just prefer that it be noted somehow and properly disclosed to the borrower.

Of course, we need to be VERY careful about the fees if we have maximums for notary fees. When we work as signing agents, we're essentially charging for two different services -- the signing agent and the notary.

I always cringe when I see "Notary Fees: $150" or something like that, and the borrower says, "There were only 4 notarizations here, I should only pay $40 for that, right?"

Maybe it's my dumb luck, but I've had something like that happen three times now -- where the borrower was knowledgeable about the fees. I can't fault them -- it's generally their money, right? In fact, from the borrower perspective... I can see some major legal issues pop up if they ever want to contest the terms of the loan. All they need is a savvy enough attorney to say, "That's an illegal fee, you were overcharged for notary services." And they would have state statutes to back them up!

(This is why, when I invoice services or companies that hire me, I keep notarial acts totally separate from other fees. I never want to have to answer to the SoS for overcharging.)

So in those cases, it's likely a good thing that the notary/signing agent fees are lumped in with all of the Title Service Fees. It makes it less confusing and may actually protect notaries from being sued for over charging. Plus, it will stop some overly nit picky borrowers from trying to itemize to the penny. Of course, as a nit picky borrower.... that really ticks me off, too.

In the end... yeah... it doesn't really matter. The practical reality of it is that the majority of people don't care or won't notice. Plus, by insisting that our fees be on the HUD, we could slow down the already slow paperwork process, since it has become the industry standard to hire the notary at the last possible moment, often after the docs have already been drawn up.

Sadly, though we're third party providers and technically speaking, should be itemized on the HUD form... the practical answer is that we're part of the "administrative fees" that are lumped together with other Title Services. Plus, as Glenn said... even if we were itemized, it's no guarantee of payment. Why? Because we're not being contracted by the borrower (the majority of the time) to perform these services. Our agreement is with the Title Company or Signing Service, not the borrower. The HUD forms are for the borrowers... not us.

Of course, as a borrower... I want to know what that big "lump sum" of "Title Services" really means. It seems that it's a great way for the Title company to pad their profits a bit because they don't have to be specific. I mean, really, "Administration Fees" is pretty vague.

Reply by PAW on 12/2/09 12:16pm
Msg #312807

That line is for "Notary" fees. What you get from a TC or SS for doing a signing is NOT a notary fee. You are not being paid per notarial act or signature, but for a much larger job. It just happens to include notarial duties.

What we do is a part of the closing fee. Whether or not we are listed separately is up to the title company when they add their fees and costs to the settlement.

In reality, over the past decade, I would say that my services were specifically listed on the HUD less than 5% of the assignments I did. I certainly won't miss the "Notary fees" line on a HUD.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 12/2/09 11:10am
Msg #312783

Fretting over nothing ....

Due to the nature of my area and the fact that most of the loans I have been closing are repo sales, the docs are already in transit to the borrower when I am called for service. Just the fact that you are being hired by a title company increases you odds of getting paid.

Also, from what I have seen in the forums, in cases where the notary has had this done on a refi and then wasn't paid, it made no difference. Bankrupt is bankrupt. And then when they are hired by a signing service, all bets are off (no offense to the good ss on this forum). They can tell you what you want to hear then when the docs arrive .. guess what? If you are not paid, the fact of your name line 1106 proves nothing. It does not prove that you showed up and did the work. It does not even prove that you were hired to perform the closing (at least not in a California small claims court). If you go to court / collection you need your confirmation sheet to prove you were hired for the job, and a copy of your signature / notary stamp on the recorded DOT / Mortgage to prove you finished the job.

I have never commented on this subject when I have seen it, as I figured to eash his own. I will tell you now after several years of experience that this request is an annoyance to the title company and could cause them to call someone else. I have been on the receiving end of extra work because of the title company being annoyed by notary requests when there are so many more notaries (me, for instance) that will just "Git 'er done".

Spending energy worrying about line 1106 is wasted when there are other things you should be doing to ensure payment. JMHO

Reply by Regal/NC on 12/2/09 11:25am
Msg #312788

I concur!! Confirmation & Copy of ack page does the trick n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 12/2/09 11:33am
Msg #312793

Re: Fretting over nothing ....to continue in Glenn's example

If one is really bent on being put on the HUD, there are plenty of blank lines to add a name and amount, I would think.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/2/09 11:29am
Msg #312789

Notary line was never for Signing Agents in the first place

I just went over this not long ago ... the "Notary Fee" was intended by HUD to be used ONLY for fees specific to notarizations, and was a line item that was excluded (as such) from the APR calculations.

To use that line for anything BUT was ...in conflict, shall we say, with HUD's regulations and Reg Z guidelines.

How & why this mattered ...search for my last explanation, it's more complicated than I'm up to at the moment. Suffice to say - you were not supposed to be on that line BEYOND fees specific for notarization.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/2/09 6:20pm
Msg #312860

Exactly!

Notary Signing Agents should have never been listed on the hud on that line.

Reply by jojo_MN on 12/2/09 11:33am
Msg #312792

I personally like the fact we're not listed. I can't count the number of times that the borrower sees the fees being paid and would say comments such as "Wow! You sure get a lot just for bringing papers to my house". I don't reply, but it's even worse if there is a signing service listed for $250-375.

Another point is, if you are listed on the HUD, there is a good chance that the title company won't pay you if it doesn't fund. Title companies have told me that they pay when not listed, but don't pay if listed.

Either way, I expect to get paid if I do the service. If I'm listed, or not, is irrelevant to me.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 12/2/09 1:34pm
Msg #312830

Re: Agree. Would rather not be listed on HUD. n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/2/09 11:33am
Msg #312794

Also ...there are two places on new Hud ...

Line 1101 - included in the Title Services fee, or written in on 1102 as a third party fee.

Reply by mwm143 on 12/2/09 12:54pm
Msg #312815

Signing fees should NEVER be shown as Notary fees

Once upon a time several years ago a title company and notary were investigated by the state of NC because the Notary Fee was shown on the HUD as $$$. An attorney pursued the legality of it because of the then fee of $3.00 per notarization. From that point on I always make sure my fee, if shown on the HUD, is listed under "Settlement Fee" and never Notary Fee.

Reply by Karen Flores on 12/2/09 3:01pm
Msg #312839

Sometimes this will get you a raise. The notary fee is supposed to be listed separately on the Hud 1. I used this to get the higher fee for the next closings I did. Borrowers usually don't realize this is your fee.

Reply by John/CT on 12/2/09 6:53pm
Msg #312864

Re: New HUD - No "Notary Fees" line. I'm OK with that ...

I've lost track of how many times borrowers have said, "Wow! We're paying you THAT MUCH for just this?!?!" Thanx ... no more hoops I'll have to jump through.