Posted by SusieTN on 12/15/09 3:52pm
Msg #314484

P.O.A.

I had a situation where a company called me and wanted me to meet a client to sign a Deed and a name verification. On the DEED.. it stated... John Smith and Susie Jones (not real names), two single people. The signing page had John Smith and Susie Jones. But, they were wanting Susie Jones to sign John Smith signing as power of attorney, Susie Jones. I said the Deed should be printed that way, if she was going to sign that way, and the name verification was Susie Jones and Susie Smith were the same person. I thought it all sounded kind of strange, and was not willing to sign without seeing John Smith, too, and the poa. Has anyone ever run across this?!?!?!?

Reply by Roger_OH on 12/15/09 4:00pm
Msg #314485

If the company is asking that she signs the doc that way on behalf of John, then they already have a copy of the POA. You don't need to see it. As long as you can ID Susie, just follow instructions.

Notarize, don't analyze.

Reply by SusieTN on 12/15/09 4:21pm
Msg #314488

ANYTIME I have had a P.O.A. it is typed exactly like that on the Deed, and the person signs out the whole thing, as printed. Not analyzing, but need my license and for strangers and not a company I knew, not worth the risk!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 4:54pm
Msg #314496

Susie...just because there's a POA doesn't change the

vesting of title....only the way the document is signed in that he is not signing for himself - she's signing pursuant to the authority granted to her by him in the POA..

Title is in Jane Smith and John Jones (or whatever the names were)..Jane Smith, AIF for John Jones, is not the owner of the property - John Jones is (and maybe Jane Smith too) - if both own, she would sign for herself and for him as AIF...however their names on the security instrument as how title is vested would still read John Jones and Jane Smith.

Reply by desktopfull on 12/15/09 4:44pm
Msg #314493

Roger, Unless you see the POA you don't have any proof that they actually are allowed to sign documents for another person. Without seeing a valid copy of the POA I would not notarize the signature for a POA.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 4:50pm
Msg #314494

Re: P.O.A....Barbara...page 40 of the manual

we're not required to see the POA - just take their word....

Reply by SusieTN on 12/15/09 4:54pm
Msg #314495

Re: P.O.A....Barbara...page 40 of the manual

That doesnt make sense to me. They could tell you anything. It is our job to see proof of what we are notarizing. And, if they have proof, why not send it to you.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 4:58pm
Msg #314498

Re: P.O.A....Barbara...page 40 of the manual

When it comes to loan signings, title and lender have already seen the POA and have approved it and verified the authority the AIF has....their word to me is sufficient as they are paid far more than I am to determine the legality of an instrument. And in accordance with our notary manual, we do not need to see the POA..in fact, it states

"It is not the notary‘s responsibility to ensure that the signer has power of attorney. The
person states he has that authority and indicates this fact when he signs - just accept his word."

Reply by SusieTN on 12/15/09 5:01pm
Msg #314500

Re: P.O.A....Barbara...page 40 of the manual

Thank you for that clarification. I will remember and perhaps take the next job that comes up like that.

Reply by PAW on 12/15/09 8:09pm
Msg #314534

What you are notarizing ...

is the signers signature, not the document nor its contents.

>>> It is our job to see proof of what we are notarizing. <<<

The signer is responsible for the contents of a document. The notary is responsible for verifying the signer is who they are and either taking an acknowledgment from the signer or administering an oath or affirmation to the signer. (Plus the notarial requirements that go along with the notarial acts.)

Reply by desktopfull on 12/15/09 5:07pm
Msg #314506

Re: P.O.A....Barbara...page 40 of the manual

Linda, on all of the ones I've done the TC has requested that I pick up the original POA and return it with the docs and inform the borrower that it will be returned after funding. The POA is also specific for the property only and not a general POA.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 5:10pm
Msg #314507

I was responding to your post Barb,

You said "Unless you see the POA you don't have any proof that they actually are allowed to sign documents for another person. Without seeing a valid copy of the POA I would not notarize the signature for a POA." Your seeing the POA is not a requirement.

Reply by desktopfull on 12/15/09 5:19pm
Msg #314509

Re: I was responding to your post Barb,

I know, but I still want proof that someone is legally allowed to sign documents for someone else. If someone wants to report me let them, it beats having to defend yourself in a lawsuit because you aided someone in ripping off someone elses property. It's ridiculous that they have to identify themselves with a government issued ID in order to have their signature notarized, but can just state that so and so said I can sign for them and were just supposed to notarize away. Fortunately, I always been requested to pick up the original and return it to title with docs. I've already caught one fraudulent loan deal, and the parents called and thanked me for saving their house.

Reply by PAW on 12/15/09 8:18pm
Msg #314537

Re: I was responding to your post Barb,

90% of the POA signings that I've done, the lender required the POA long before closing. As Linda pointed out, the notary is not responsible for verifying the capacity claimed by the signer, only verifying that the signer is who they say they are. If there is any issue about the legality of the document and authority to sign for someone else, that will be determined in the legal system.

Reply by Roger_OH on 12/15/09 6:02pm
Msg #314513

Disagree...

The POA is usually submitted to the lender/TC prior to the signing. As long as they tell me they already have an original, I don't need to see it.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/15/09 5:01pm
Msg #314501

Incorrect on several counts

First - if Susie Jones has a POA from John Smith, she would sign as his "Attorney-in-Fact", not as his "Power of Attorney".

2nd - If Susie has a POA from John, it would be for the purpose of signing FOR him, as if it were his signature. The document would not have to reflect that in the pre-printed signature space, but could be hand-printed to show the capacity. The vesting on the Deed should not reflect that - since it's purpose is to reflect how title is being held, not how the document was signed.

3rd - as either a notary public OR a signing agent, there is absolutely no reason for you to see the POA. The person/entity receiving the signed document (whatever it is) is charged with the responsibility of ensuring Ms. Susie has valid authority to sign on John's behalf.

4th - Asking or requiring to see the POA puts out the assumption that you can determine it's validity - HOW are you going to do that, if the Principle is not there, and are you an attorney who can make this determination?

5th - you end by saying you weren't willing to do this "without seeing John, and the POA." Um...if John were available for you to meet ....why would they need a POA?

Reply by SusieTN on 12/15/09 5:04pm
Msg #314503

Re: Incorrect on several counts

THAT was my question too? I asked if he had passed, or was out of state, or??? They didnt know, thought he was in the hospital?!?!? Then they said they thought she was his wife... but the document stated two single people... It just was not comfortable to me, and for only 50.00 to drive 25 miles...... chose to not do it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/15/09 5:18pm
Msg #314508

Re: Incorrect on several counts

If he died, the POA died with him so the whole thing is moot.

I agree with the others - it's not your job to see, review or question the POA. If the lender is saying Susie should sign with a POA, that's what you have her do. It doesn't matter that the signature line doesn't include this; she signs with his name, followed by hers as attorney in fact.

As others have said - notarize, don't analyze.

Reply by desktopfull on 12/15/09 5:02pm
Msg #314502

In FL, they list the names of the owner's only on the deed with their marital status and if the document is being signed using a POA they have the person signing, sign the name of the person they are signing for, then write "as attorney in fact," then "by" and sign their name. IE: John Doe, as attorney in fact, by Jane Doe. That is how all of mine have been done.

I actually caught someone with a forged POA putting a loan on their parents house while the parents were out of the country. He was attempting to get a $98,0000 cash out. The parent's had given their son a POA so that he could pay their monthly bills while they were gone. He used that POA to write another POA (with his wife and cousin as the witnesses) and it was notarized by a notary in this state. When I asked for a copy of his ID, the son (in error I'm sure) gave me the copy of his father's DL the signature on the DL didn't match the signature on the POA. Then I found out that his wife had signed the other POA for his mother. Needless to say, this loan got cancelled after I called the TC.

Reply by SusieTN on 12/15/09 5:07pm
Msg #314505

That type of thing was my concern. I had a sniglet (uncomfortable feeling) and went with it. I trust my gut more than an unknown!!

Reply by SharonMN on 12/15/09 5:47pm
Msg #314512

You aren't verifying anything about the POA, so you don't need to see it. All you are saying is that Susie appeared in front of you, had ID to prove she was Susie, and signed the document.

It's sort of like the question posed earlier in the week about notarizing a permission slip for a child to visit someone in jail (or for that matter, when a Vice President of a company signs something). You don't determine that the signer is really the parent or really an officer of the company, or if he is an officer, whether he has the authority to sign a particular type of document for the company. All you need to do is make sure the person has proper ID. It's somebody else's job to check whether that person has the proper authority to sign the document, and whether the document they signed actually accomplishes what they wanted to accomplish.

In your case, it looks to me like maybe John and Susie bought the property as single people, and later got married (changing Susie's last name), and the husband, perhaps being ill, deployed in the military, or otherwise unavailable, gave his wife POA. Obviously if you thought something didn't smell right, that's your call, but it doesn't seem that unusual to me.

FYI - the original POA would probably have been notarized - THAT notary's job would have been to ID John and determine that he wasn't drunk, crazy, or otherwise incapable of making a decision to give Susie POA.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/16/09 12:16am
Msg #314563

I think it boils down to the fact that it is the responsibility of the document custodian - not you - to be sure that the person who signs for the other one has the authority to do so and to decide whether or not they will accept the document. The format used states straight up that it is Susie who is signing John Smith's name on that page for him and that she is doing so as his Attorney-in-Fact. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure that the person who is appearing before you is properly identified as Susie Jones. Nothing more. I don't know all about FL certificates, but in CA, I would only put Susie's name on my certificate because she is the only one who personally appeared before me.

Like the others have said, this is not an unusual situation. One more point: just because you've always seen something done a certain way doesn't mean that it's the only right way to do something -- especially in our line of work!!

Reply by PAW on 12/16/09 7:06am
Msg #314570

FYI - In Florida ...

Just as a point of reference, Florida does allow, actually requires, representative capacity to be shown in acknowledgments. For example:

The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this (date) by (name of attorney in fact) as attorney in fact, who is personally known to me or who has produced (type of identification) as identification on behalf of (name of principal) .
[Ref: Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, pg 30 and F.S. 695.25]

Reply by Robert/FL on 12/16/09 8:58am
Msg #314576

Re: FYI - In Florida ...

I think Florida has the model law in this regard. We are not responsible for seeing the actual POA - even if one is presented, how do we know that it hasn't been revoked by separate writing or by the death of the principal? Our manual is very clear that the notary does not need to see the original POA; all they have to do is take the signer's word for it.

Whatever we put in our certificates for a capacity is nothing more than what the signer represented themselves to be. So there is no harm in "husband and wife", or "as president of ABC Corporation", or even "who represented to me that he was formerly known as _____".

For extra clarification, the notary could have the signer *swear* that they are acting as attorney-in-fact for John Q. Public, or that they were formerly known by some other name. Then in a court of law it is the signer, not the notary, who is guilty of perjury.