Posted by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 7:31pm
Msg #314805
Question to Georgia notaries:
For a legal notarization, does the signer have to present before you?
A bank employee today told me someone in their GA office told them they could just sign the docs here in CA, ship to the GA office and the GA notary would notarize docs as they knew them, had their ID information and their verbiage says "... known to me ..."
Is this correct??? Told them I'd inquire of knowledgeable GA notaries.
TIA!!
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Reply by Teresa/FL on 12/17/09 7:42pm
Msg #314807
I'm not in Georgia, but there is no way this can be done as
you are describing. My experience with bank notaries is that they apply for and receive their commissions as a requirement or at the request of their employer (the bank) and most do not really know the notary laws.
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 7:44pm
Msg #314808
Re: I'm not in Georgia, but there is no way this can be done as
I told them it didn't sound right to me. However, I'd check on it.
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Reply by dickb/wi on 12/17/09 7:48pm
Msg #314809
yoli....this is even pre notary 101.......all affiants have to be present in front of the notary doing the notarization......[1] either ti acknowledge that they signed the doc [2] sign the doc [3] or take an oath [affirm] and sign the doc........most if not all bank employees don't have a clue as to notary law........and unfortutely that can affect all of us........not to cast aspersion on you but as a notary you should know that....
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 7:56pm
Msg #314810
Thank you, Dick. Your [1] and [2] were the same thing I told them (almost verbatim). Just wanted to be sure GA didn't have some other clauses on their books.
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Reply by John Schenk on 12/17/09 8:01pm
Msg #314811
Subscribed and sworn BEFORE ME, acknowledged BEFORE ME...
If it's not done in your presence, it's not BEFORE ME. It's done before somebody else or before nobody at all. Just remember BEFORE ME is on everything you will sign as a notary. You don't have to ask any further questions.
JJ
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Reply by John Schenk on 12/17/09 8:11pm
Msg #314813
Wasn't meaning to be snippy...
And you DO have to ask a further question...May I see your valid ID?
What I meant was with regard to whether or not they were BEFORE YOU, which they must be or you can't notarize any document unless they actually sign it before you.
Sorry if I sounded snippy...was not my intent. Been a long week.
JJ
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 8:27pm
Msg #314815
Took it as feisty, not snippy.
No problem, John.
Actually, in CA we have something called Subscribing Witness. To wit:
Proof of Execution by a Subscribing Witness
If a person, called the principal, has signed a document, but does not personally appear before
a notary public, another person can appear on the principal’s behalf to prove the principal
signed (or “executed”) the document. That person is called a subscribing witness. (Code of
Civil Procedure section 1935)
Note: A proof of execution by a subscribing witness cannot be used in conjunction with
any quitclaim deed, grant deed (other than a trustee’s deed or deed of reconveyance),
mortgage, deed of trust, or security agreement. (Government Code section 27287 and
Civil Code section 1195(b))
The requirements for proof of execution by a subscribing witness are as follows:
• The subscribing witness must prove (say under oath) that the person who signed the
document as a party, the principal, is the person described in the document, and the
subscribing witness personally knows the principal (Civil Code section 1197); and
• The subscribing witness must say, under oath, that the subscribing witness saw the principal
sign the document or in the presence of the principal heard the principal acknowledge
that the principal signed the document (Code of Civil Procedure 1935 and Civil Code
section 1197); and
• The subscribing witness must say, under oath, that the subscribing witness was requested
by the principal to sign the document as a witness and that the subscribing witness did so
(Code of Civil Procedure 1935 and Civil Code section 1197); and
general information 13
• The notary public must establish the identity of the subscribing witness by the oath of
a credible witness whom the notary personally knows and who personally knows the
subscribing witness. The credible witness must also present to the notary public any
identification document satisfying the requirements for satisfactory evidence as described
in Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) or (4) (Civil Code section 1196); and
• The subscribing witness must sign the notary public’s official journal. The credible
witness must sign the notary public’s official journal or the notary public must record
in the notary public’s official journal the type of identification document presented, the
governmental agency issuing the document, the serial number of the document, and the
date of issue or expiration of the document. (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(C)
and (D))
Note: The identity of the subscribing witness must be established by the oath of a credible
witness who personally knows the subscribing witness and who is known personally by
the notary public. In addition, the credible witness must present an identification document
satisfying the requirements of Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) or (4).
Someone still signs BEFORE THE NOTARY. Just not the principal.
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Reply by John Schenk on 12/17/09 8:40pm
Msg #314818
Re: Took it as feisty, not snippy.
How do you ship it to Georgia and get around this provision?
"• The subscribing witness must say, under oath, that the subscribing witness saw the principal
sign the document or in the presence of the principal heard the principal acknowledge
that the principal signed the document (Code of Civil Procedure 1935 and Civil Code
section 1197); and"
Plus the subscribing witness must sign your journal.
How you gonna send signed docs to GA for someone to notarize there unless the subscribing witness is going to hand carry them for a GA notary to notarize them, swear in that witness, have him/her sign the journal?
Question was, and it's a good question:
For a legal notarization, does the signer have to present before you?
A bank employee today told me someone in their GA office told them they could just sign the docs here in CA, ship to the GA office and the GA notary would notarize docs as they knew them, had their ID information and their verbiage says "... known to me ..."
Is this correct??? Told them I'd inquire of knowledgeable GA notaries.
IF similar provisions exist in GA, the signing could not take place in CA, ship them to GA, and get those notarized unless the subscribing witness was present in the CA signing, and was then also present before the GA notary, or am I missing something here?
The GA notary has to swear in the subscribing witness and have that witness sign the journal. The subscribing witness has to see the signer sign the docs, right? So I just don't see how they could be signed in CA, shipped to GA, unless that subscribing witness accompanies those docs to be sworn in by the notary. Also, if there be a similar provision in GA:
Note: The identity of the subscribing witness must be established by the oath of a credible
witness who personally knows the subscribing witness and who is known personally by
the notary public. In addition, the credible witness must present an identification document
satisfying the requirements of Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) or (4).
Pretty hard to meet those requirements shipping docs out of state EVEN if GA has a similar provision, don't ya think?
JJ
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 9:48pm
Msg #314828
Re: Took it as feisty, not snippy.
Didn't say the SW was applicable in this instance. Simply stated that principal to docs does not always have to appear before the notary.
I know what you're saying and absolutely agree with you. Just inquired whether GA law had some variances. Geez!
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Reply by PAW on 12/18/09 8:23am
Msg #314852
Oops ...
John, you said, "... you can't notarize any document unless they actually sign it before you." That's not entirely true. If the notarial act is an acknowledgment, then the signer can sign the document at any time before or at the time of notarization. All they need to do is "acknowledge" their signature. Of course, the presence requirement still must be met, as the signer must personally appear before the notary to make the acknowledgment.
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Reply by Cam/CA on 12/17/09 8:33pm
Msg #314817
Re: Actually John, there is the "subscribing witness"
allowed in CA, where the signer does not have to appear before the Notary, this isn't one of those cases though.
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-handbook-2009.pdf
page 12.
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Reply by John Schenk on 12/17/09 8:49pm
Msg #314819
Re: Actually John, there is the "subscribing witness"
Read pages 12-14. Also takes a credible witness in addition to what I just wrote before.
I can't see how it would be possible for someone to sign in CA and ship the docs to GA to be notarized there. IF GA notary laws were similar, both the subscribing witness AND a credible witness that the GA notary also knew would have to appear before the GA notary. Now wonder what the chances of that happening are? LOL I wouldn't think too good.
JJ
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Reply by Cam/CA on 12/17/09 8:57pm
Msg #314820
Re: Actually John, there is the "subscribing witness"
I said that it "didn't apply in this case".
The subscribing witness was bought up to answer the part of your post that said that the signer has to appear before the Notary.
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Reply by John Schenk on 12/17/09 9:02pm
Msg #314821
I agree, Cam...
It's not an impossibility, but the only way I could see this happening, if there are similar provisions in GA, would be if the GA had a relative or friend in CA that was a witness for the subscribing witness and THEN both the subscribing witness and that witness for the subscribing witness were to fly to GA to appear before that notary. That's an unlikely scenario, although something like that "might" be possible, but bet we don't find a GA notary on here that ever did that. LOL
Have a great night! Thank you for your input and the link!
JJ
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Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/17/09 8:27pm
Msg #314814
Great question to illustrate the need for Notaries to
learn our State Laws.
Does your State have a Handbook? Excellent place to start.
Clearly, the Bank Employee is not a Notary Public.
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/17/09 8:29pm
Msg #314816
I do have my State Handbook and know it well. Just don't
know Georgia's laws.
And, no the employee I spoke to is not a notary. However, the one in GA that made that statement is a notary.
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Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/17/09 10:08pm
Msg #314831
My point is that you operate under the laws of Calif., not
any other state.
Requiring verbiage is one thing, trying to circumvent the universal requirement of personal appearance is another.
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Reply by MW/VA on 12/17/09 9:11pm
Msg #314822
No need to wonder why the banks are in so much trouble. n/m
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/17/09 10:11pm
Msg #314832
My thoughts, too - and why we see so many notary errors! n/m
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Reply by Seeker/GA on 12/19/09 7:20am
Msg #314979
I did not see many replies from GA notaries so I decided to respond. PAW in Florida nailed it. I am a notary/attorney and agree with his response. Also, please keep in mind that in any state you will find people who will not adhere to the rules of their profession. Unfortunately, my great state of GA does not require notaries to complete any training or to pass any knowledge exams. If someone is performing these acts for a CA company, it could be an innocent error resulting from the lack of training.
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Reply by Yoli/CA on 12/19/09 11:27am
Msg #315004
Thank you, Seeker. Advised the CA bank employee that same rules apply. Now, ignorance is not an excuse.
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Reply by Babs/GA on 12/19/09 7:31pm
Msg #315055
This is from GA NOTARY HANDBOOK pg 15
"Presence requirement- the signer MUST be present before the notary,no exceptions."
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