Posted by robert greenwald on 12/5/09 11:56am
Msg #313163

new requirements for closings

Have any of you been required to take a test on content of documents. It seems that a few companies are now requiring notaries to do so. They are saying that it is now a requirement. We are really only required to be witnessing agents and can not explain or need to have info on any document other than where to have borrower sign and where to notarize. To identify the document is ok.however to explain further is against the law since one can be accused of practicing law without a license and imprisonment.Additionally more and more companies are not filling out some of the documents specifically the title companies and want the notaries to fill in the blank spaces. That is not our job and you are not practicing due diligence to have a borrower sign a document with items not filled in. I have been a notary for 9 years and never heard of this before. Also background investigations are good forever unless there is reason for cause.This is a money making requirement that is taking advantage of us and should be stopped.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/5/09 12:05pm
Msg #313164

I have to take issue that background checks are good forever

as they are really only good the day they are done, same as tests for VD, pregnancy or Aids. The following day something could change.

But, and a huge BIT - I do agree in principle with you - a money making requirement to take advantage of us. I would like to also see all loan employees, TC employees and anyone who comes into contact with loan process to also be required to do the same. He!!, I'd like Disney to institute more stringent controls over who they hire so they would quit hiring pedophiles. (No, nothing recent, but..)

Reply by PAW on 12/5/09 12:37pm
Msg #313167

>>> We are really only required to be witnessing agents and can not explain or need to have info on any document other than where to have borrower sign and where to notarize. To identify the document is ok.however to explain further is against the law since one can be accused of practicing law without a license and imprisonment. <<<

Yes, there is a line in the sand that crossing it would mean UPL. However, I submit that signing agents should know more about the document than just identifying it (e.g., "This is your Truth in Lending statement" and showing them where to sign. It is not UPL to explain the purpose of any document, (why is it in the package, what is its purpose) nor show specific items within a document. Of course, it is not within our purview to explain why the interest rate is what it is, for example, but certainly within our realm to show the borrowers what their interest rate is. So, testing to see if a signing agent knows the contents of documents is, in my opinion, a smart thing to do. That way, many questions can be answered at the table. Especially with confusing documents such as the TIL or Initial Escrow disclosure. (Like, "why is the interest rate on the TIL higher than what I thought I agreed to?"

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/5/09 1:06pm
Msg #313171

Agree, I believe that we can prooperly answer certain ??

based on our familiarity with standard loan dox.
(eg . Is there a penalty if I pay part or all of loan early?. You can point to
box at bottom of TIL. Or why is my payoff higher than the balance shown on
my last statement.? Because interst is paid in arrears and accures from 1st of
month. Why am I beling charged interest to end of this month. ? !st payment due Feb 1
and that will pay Jan. interest. etc. etc.
Saves a lot of time on phone, is IMO does not cross UPL line.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 12/5/09 1:06pm
Msg #313172

Not new ...

I have answered a few questions over the phone before a company that wasn't familiar with me hired me. No problem.

I think it's fair to the people that hire us to try to reassure themselves that they aren't hiring total morons. I think PAW has a very valid point that we should to be able to answer questions such as "Why is the interest on the TIL different from the note". That's not UPL.

Reply by desktopfull on 12/5/09 1:04pm
Msg #313170

"Additionally more and more companies are not filling out some of the documents specifically the title companies and want the notaries to fill in the blank spaces. That is not our job and you are not practicing due diligence to have a borrower sign a document with items not filled in."


Why would you fill in the blank spaces instead of letting the borrower fill in those spaces after you have pointed out the blank area? That way it's in the borrowers writing and initialed by the borrower since anything handwritten in an agreement takes precedent over what's typewritten.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/5/09 1:07pm
Msg #313173

Love it ...

I disagree with almost every point you’ve presented, as they relate to being a Signing Agent. If you are ONLY a notary and NOT presenting yourself as a Signing Agent, then fine – but your profile clearly advertises your services as that of a Signing Agent. I would contend that nobody on this planet is testing “notaries public” for loan signing knowledge – they are testing “loan signing agents”.

I applaud any attempt to sort out these two groups, and I’ll take any test anyone conjures up. I will add – I won’t PAY anyone for this, other than the entities I pay for marketing purposes.

Your understanding of UPL sounds like a recitation from the Big Book of No-Can-Do. It is NOT against the law to explain loan documents properly, and the line between performing a truly professional SA service and actually interpreting law and offering legal advice w/out a license is not difficult to find. It is not, however, very easy to train people so that they can perform with expertise within a day or a weekend.

Having worked as a W-2 employee of title agents, retail mtg brokers and wholesale lenders – I have been BBC’d-to-death. I have been drug tested, had my credit report scrutinized, been finger-printed and even had my car interior looked at during an interview (was hired, learned later this was common). While I might not agree with all this, I certainly always had a choice – want the job/get it done.

Knowing this is pretty standard on the inside – I carry it on now, of my own accord, because I support the process. I obtain a verifiable BBC (from here) and keep them current, and WISH they were required.

Anything I can do to be more widely knowledgeable, more professional, more polished, more ‘elite’, more visible, better equipped, more highly trained, more scrutinized …I will happily do. This is what I compete with, and it is also why I do not work cheap. I am absolutely thrilled when I get ‘interview’ type phone calls from new clients – ahhh, another opportunity to show them why they should chose ME. Why would any S/A balk at a test???

Reply by MW/VA on 12/5/09 4:16pm
Msg #313182

I completely agree, Renee.

Thanks for the great post. That is how I conduct my business. UPL is if I would ADVISE the clients as to the legal or financial raminifcations of the loan. These people who think it is only their job to point to the signature line & then notarize it need to get out of this business.
I had an example of that today with a refi signing. The borrowers were very apprehensive when I arrived (based on past experience from what I picked up on). She commented on how well organized & prepared I was & I could tell that put her at ease. I conducted the signing as I always do, and could tell that any questions they may have had were answered during the process. There's a lot of satisfaction that comes from providing the best possible service.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/5/09 7:34pm
Msg #313191

Great post, Renee! Thanks! Couldn't agree more!

And great advice in the last paragraph!

If we don't know how to walk someone through what their loan is all about and what they are signing, they might as well be going to the UPS store - or whatever notary on the corner. We're more than just couriers and witnesses - at least some of us are - and that's what makes us worth more.

A few weeks ago, I had one borrower comment that I seemed to know more about the loan than the LO officer did. I had some tightrope walking to do there to not cross the line, but I was able to help them through several issues that they were concerned about without getting into interpreting anything or making recommendations to them. They were probably dealing with a fairly inexperienced LO, but I was the only person they'd been face to face with since the beginning and I could tell it made a big difference to them. As many know, this can be a deal-saver sometimes -- especially when the LO isn't reachable, which seems to be the majority of the time, ime.

Reply by FAN_IL on 12/5/09 11:41pm
Msg #313205

Re: Loved your post, Renee!

When I first started out, I did contract closings for local TC's so that I could really learn this business because the NNA's NSA certification test was so lackluster. I've also been fortunate to learn from many of the loan processors I've had the privilege to work w/ regularly. They've taken the time to teach me a lot on numerous occasions, especially in the early days, and I truly do appreciate it.

I wish there was a decent training program for this business that would genuinely separate professional closers from the rest. Whatever is currently available is certainly not rigorous enough, given the potential for just plain error, not to mention fraud, etc.

I also agree that a professional presentation of loan & title documents in a borrower's package does not constitute the UPL.

Anyway, you said it better than I could have, so thanks!

Reply by jba/fl on 12/5/09 2:43pm
Msg #313176

Gotta love Sat. am appointments

Especially when there is no one to answer their phones and the docs are printed with middle name first. Thank heaven for correction agreements.

Oh - according to some, I crossed that line because I said what the correction agreement does. This is just another reason there are notaries and there are signing agents. The twain can meet, but it comes with experience and understanding, and that, of course, is why I get hired. (because I can think either on my feet or sitting down.)

Reply by Letty Marquez on 12/5/09 4:47pm
Msg #313185

Re: Gotta love Sat. am appointments

thank you!

There is difference between a simple notary and a CLSA. If you do not want to tell the client what he/she is signing then you are not a loan signing agent and therefore you can't get paid as a signing agent either. You are only required to get pay for your notarial services.

Loan signing Agents or Certified Loan signing agents are the ones that tell the client what in the world they are signing. If you want to explain make sure you have the knowledge and permission from Lender. (I used to work as a certified morgage specialist)

I always tell the client what they are signing. ex."Mr. Doe, here is your note, you promise to pay $$$$ at this rate, Note is just principal and interest, your first payment is ____. and then I show them were to sign. Is that to much? I don't think so. Its clear and in paper you are not saying anything that is not true.

Now, if they have a question that you know you should not answer always welcome them to call their lender for explanation.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/5/09 7:29pm
Msg #313189

Not exactly

"We are really only required to be witnessing agents and can not explain or need to have info on any document other than where to have borrower sign and where to notarize."

It's thinking like this that helps justify the low-ball fees some companies are offering. Why would I pay you $150+ if all you're going to do is point to where they're supposed to sign??? I can get any idiot with a notary stamp to do THAT for $50 or less... If we want this to be a profession rather than a commodity, there has to be value added - and the value is understanding the process, understanding the documents, and the ability to communicate that understanding to the signers in a way that makes them comfortable with what they're doing. Remember, you're often the only real person they see during the entire transaction.

"To identify the document is ok.however to explain further is against the law since one can be accused of practicing law without a license and imprisonment."

Untrue. You can ALWAYS explain the purpose of a document in general terms - that is not UPL. The point at which you cross the line into UPL is when you get into specifics - how it affects them given their current situation, for example - or give advice. Simple rule of thumb - you can talk about the document, but not about how it applies to them personally. Follow that, and you'll stay out of trouble.

"Also background investigations are good forever unless there is reason for cause."

How would one know if there's reason for cause unless they did another background investigation?

BGCs are a snapshot in time; they only cover you up to the point at which they're completed. Just as with stocks, past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future results - one could pass a BGC with flying colors today, and rob a bank tomorrow. So much for that BGC...

I agree that the whole BGC thing has turned into a profit center for some companies and should probably be stopped, but not for the reason you stated. My personal opinion is that they're useless for what we do, especially in those cases where the state has already checked the notary's background prior to issuing or renewing a commission (CA is the gold standard as far as that is concerned). Of course, there are some states where you just have to be able to fog a mirror in order to be commissioned, and maybe they should start looking more closely at who they allow to be a notary. Either way, as far as loan signings are concerned, there are a lot of people further up the food chain who are reviewing the documents before we ever see them; if they aren't required to get a BGC, why should we?

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 12/5/09 9:22pm
Msg #313196

Re: Excellent discussion

This is an excellent descision! Now how do we as NSAs get companies to see the difference and pay us accordingly or better yet hire just the professionals?? I will take a test any day of the week..bring it on..But if I pass your test will you pay me what I am worth or skip over me to get a lowballer??

I have been told over and over how good, organized and knowledgeable I am..gee makes me wonder who they saw the last time? Most of the time we are the only person that the bos see and we hear it all!

Click and point is definetely not my style either!

Reply by Simple Solutions Notary Service - JoAnn Baracosa on 12/6/09 12:51am
Msg #313210

Re: Excellent discussion

When I started in this business It was here reading the blogs. This is where I started to build my thinking about my business and my thinking as a Notary. I also had the great fortune to work with a LO at the table who presented her docs. She pulled out the most important 3 set (hud-note-til) and read them to her borrowers. I have adaped her presentation with a some changes. I tell the borrowers that they need to read (Hud-note-til) first and them sign. Because in a nut shell that is their loan. There are a few other things that are added into the presentation and signing but that was a great lesson learned for me. I do wish that there was a lot more of that kind of training going on. I do not know how I could have ever been able to really do a good job at the signing table with out learning form someone else. There really is not where to get good training in this field I have looked. Not Rot is the best place to learn as you go. Thanks to everyone that speaks up and put in there points of view. Thanks to the Oldies who grow us up. Thanks to those who are willing to teach us what they know. Because I am teachable . I am learning. I am molding my craft as a Notary and becoming better every day because of you here on the Not Rot.

Reply by MW/VA on 12/6/09 12:35pm
Msg #313224

Re: Excellent discussion

That's why stacking the docs is important. I stack HUD, payment letter, Note right on top.
Any # issues are covered in the first few pages & the rest of the signing is uncomplicated.

Reply by Colleen Martin on 12/6/09 1:54pm
Msg #313233

Re: Excellent discussion

i totally agree with you. i also email them a copy of the documents WAY ahead of time (if possible) so that if there are any problems, they can contact their loan officer/escrow agent/whoever to get their questions answered so the signing goes much more smoothly for everyone. as far as answering questions being against the law - uh no. i'm sure it's not a requirement to answer questions BUT it makes the closing go much more smoothly when you can look on the document where the answer is provided. you're not making anything up, it's right there for you. i find that showing up to someone's house and pointing here and there and just saying "sign here" makes people uncomfortable.....

Reply by PAW on 12/6/09 7:31pm
Msg #313260

Emailing the docs to whom?

Here's something to consider about your statement, " i also email them a copy of the documents WAY ahead of time ..." Do you know to whom you are sending the documents? You have been charged with the safe keeping and non-disclosure of the borrowers information, except to the borrowers themselves. Unless you ID them to ensure they are who they say they are and are the borrowers as named in the documents, you have no idea who is receiving this personal information. FWIW, I have been advised to never provide the documents to anyone via email. If they end up in the wrong place, available to wrong people, then you may be held personally liable (and your notary bond and E&O won't help you) if the information is used in an unacceptable or illegal manner.

You may say that lenders and title companies do it all the time. That still doesn't make is proper or acceptable for you, as a disinterested third party, to do it. Let the lenders and/or title company assume the liability and risk.