Posted by A S Johnson on 2/2/09 9:47am
Msg #276197

ID doesn't match

New month. New week. And still, a New Year But the OLD remains.
As to do a signing this am at 11 last Sat evening.
Sat called Br to confirmed. Ask about ID. Wife has not had her DL changed from her maiden name. Told him that her name had to matched thst on the docs and A DL office was a 3 miles from him and she could get a name change done before the signing.
Just got a call from the signing service. You gess it!!!
Couldn't I use usde her current DL and use her marrige license (NOT acceptable in Texas).
His reaction was, "I'll just have to find another Notary".

Reply by John_NorCal on 2/2/09 11:00am
Msg #276207

Sad thing is they will probably find another notary, some momo will do it. Legal or not.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 11:18am
Msg #276208

Agreed... someone will do it.

But, what about credible witnesses? Are those allowed in Texas? Or, is it one of those cases where the CW has to know both the notary and signer?


Either way... it's a shame that someone will eventually do it because they want the money. Too bad its a cheap price for their integrity.

Reply by Calnotary on 2/2/09 12:24pm
Msg #276226

Would you notarize in CA in the same situation Marian(with 2 credible witnesses)? I think in CA you can use 2 credible witnesses when it's impossible to get acceptable photo ID.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 12:49pm
Msg #276233

Well... I'm not sure about Texas... but in CA, sure, I would. Provided, of course they were willing to provide the two credible witnesses as to her ID. In CA, the credible witnesses must be put under oath and must have proper ID, in the journal, etc.

HOWEVER>>>>> In California, Credible witnesses are only allowed if it would be "very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of identification." If the lady can get herself to the DMV to get an ID, that's pretty reasonable. HOWEVER (again) ... the DMV also takes a couple weeks to mail the card, so in a loan signing situation, that may be considered difficult or impossible.

But, I would record her current ID in the journal ANYWAY, along with the IDs of the witnesses (as required). Now, these witnesses are only there to verify her identity, not the signing itself, but they still can't have anything to do with the transaction being signed except that they personally know the signer.


But, Texas law is probably different.

But if I were in that same situation here in CA... I would have offered the CW option after it was pretty clear she couldn't get proper ID.

Reply by Terri_CA on 2/3/09 3:13pm
Msg #276422

HOWEVER>>>>> In California, Credible witnesses are only allowed if it would be "very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of identification."

Ok, this is very disheartening.... That is part of the OATH that the CREDIBLE WITNESSES take, NOT something that the notary is to determine. In fact, it is NOT part of a California Notary's duty to make that determination.

It is the oath of the CW takes, they are saying that it would be difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of identification, not the notary. Be careful, don't overstep your boundaries.

I was given this information back in 2004 when I spoke to Paul Bresnan, head of the Notary Division at the Secretary of State about using Credible Witnesses.

Since that conversation, if the Credible Witness(es) wants to swear that it would be difficult or impossible for the signer to get or obtain identification, then I get their info, they sign my journal and I give them the oath. They are swearing that the person is who is named on the document is in front of me, and CA Law states that I can accept their oath as identification of the signer. Now this all sounds like I do this willy nilly, I don't. But I just want CA notaries to know that it is not their duty or responsibility to place judgement on the obtaining ID issue for those who don't have it and using that as a determination when to use CW's and when not to.

Hope that makes sense.

Terri
Lancaster, CA

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/2/09 1:22pm
Msg #276248

"I think in CA you can use 2 credible witnesses when it's impossible to get acceptable photo ID."

Of course, getting a driver's license changed from your maiden name to your married name isn't impossible, it's quite simple. "I never bothered to do it" is not the same thing as "impossible".

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 1:58pm
Msg #276260

Very true!

But, getting a proper ID from the DMV for notary purposes in time to close a loan? Well, that might be impossible. They can initiate it, sure... but they still have to wait for the state to mail the card, which takes up to 60 days. Of course, in CA you have to get your named changed with Social Security first before the DMV will accept a name change.

It's still not impossible, though. But it's enough to seriously mess up a loan, so in that case I would accept the CWs.

Reply by janCA on 2/2/09 3:34pm
Msg #276280

But will the LENDER accept CW's?

Especially now, in this market and with so much fraud out there. We as notaries, in the right circumstances, can accept CW's, but will the lender?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 4:39pm
Msg #276291

Re: But will the LENDER accept CW's?

Well, it's not really a matter of the lender caring. The ID rules aren't for the lender... but for the notary and are dictated by the state. If the state says that 2 CWs are acceptable to verify ID... than it's acceptable.

Now, if the lender really wants a specific from of ID used for a document such as an identity affidavit, and it isn't available... that's for the lender to decide. For for the purpose of notarizations... in CA.... the type of document doesn't matter. We just need to be satisfied that the person before us is the person they claim to be, and that satisfaction is proven through a very specific list of rules.

Reply by Shoshana Roller on 2/2/09 4:52pm
Msg #276294

I beg to differ with you...

Some lenders do care about CWs. This is especially true if there is an ID document in the package that requires the notary to describe the ID document or if the lender requires copies of ID.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 5:10pm
Msg #276298

Re: I beg to differ with you...

Like I said... if the lender cares for a specific document... that's something else. But (for CA) simply for the sake of ID for notarizations and proof of ID for the notarial block? The lender has no say in that. Else, why notarize in the first place?

We don't disagree here.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/3/09 1:58am
Msg #276362

Re: I beg to differ with you...

I've seen many a loan package specify ID requirements as a precondition to the signing. Whenever possible, when in a situation where a CW will be required, I check the make sure the lender isn't going to have a problem with it. The Patriot Act forms that we sometimes have to fill out are a case in point. Some can be very particular. FWIW...

Reply by janCA on 2/2/09 5:49pm
Msg #276308

I'm not talking about notarizations.

There are more docs to a loan package than the notarizations and some lenders will not accept CW's for their loan package. FHA's for example, require a copy of the current ID, and the SS card sent back with the loan docs.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 6:03pm
Msg #276312

Re: I'm not talking about notarizations.

Of course those are different. And in the original situation posted... it wouldn't matter, though. What notary would manage to get it done if the lender required it and why would the SS say, "I'll just get another notary to do it." Well, if one notary couldn't do it for the lender, how would another magically have it happen?

Perhaps I should have clarified myself better in what I was saying. My impression from the post wasn't that this was a lender required ID... but notary required. I was only considering the notary aspect of it because I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that the lender restrictive aspect of it would not have been a factor since the SS said they'd "get another notary."

Reply by Therese on 2/2/09 5:16pm
Msg #276301

From the handbook: The credible witness reasonably believes that the circumstances of the signer are
such that it would be very difficult or impossible for the signer to obtain another form of
identification;

It is not up to the Notary to determine it is very difficult or impossibe. The CW's are under Oath and
swearing to that statement.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/2/09 5:21pm
Msg #276302

Well...yes... but we have to tell them that they're swearing to that fact, though. Whether *I* believe it or not doesn't matter. But for that sake of suggesting it as an option when no other ID exists... I should at least be able to say, "Hey... if you can't do this... you can do this."

Reply by Therese on 2/2/09 5:54pm
Msg #276310

I have them read these statements and swear them in under oath that the foregoing is true and correct.
Of course it part of our duty to explain what is acceptable ID one or another cannot me obtained.

Reply by Therese on 2/2/09 5:58pm
Msg #276311

I have them read these statements and swear them in under oath that the foregoing is true and correct.
Of course it part of our duty to explain what is acceptable ID when one or another cannot be obtained.

Reply by A S Johnson on 2/2/09 3:16pm
Msg #276277

As posted, crediable witness in Texas must be known by notary (NOT IDed) and the CW must have known the person.
In Texas all she had to do was go to the Dept of Public Safety (State police) office which was less than 10 minutes away from theit home. Upon the proof of name change they require, the cut a top stip off the current license and issue a paper reciept with the correct name on it. This Would satify yhe ID requirement.
Of course with them not wanting to correct the DL, I would be concern that this may smell.
BTW, the SA was Notary Assurance Chandler AZ Keir McCutcheon and was a Quicken loan.