Posted by Donna LaBelle on 2/13/09 11:18pm
Msg #277485

what would you do?

I received an email today regarding a signing I did a few days ago. Apparently after I sent the docs back, someone altered an acknowledgement that I had done by adding the words "co- trustees of the _______ trust" after the part where I had written their names and the recorder of course rejected it so they wanted me to do another acknowledgement. I don't appreciate, in the least, someone altering what I have done. It is very obvious that someone else had added that because the handwriting isn't even close to my handwriting

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/14/09 12:32am
Msg #277493

They want you to send a loose acknowledgment?

First, I'd insist on finding out changed your certificate and report it to the SoS. How many people will have handled that document in a few days? State law says that somebody trying to send a forged certificate for recording can be punished up the $75K and up to a year in jail. (page 46 of handbook)

Seriously? I'd bust them... what they did was a crime. I would never send a loose certificate. I would insist that they send the entire document back and have you go back to the borrower and do it over, and have them pay you... AND I would tell the borrower why. It may put the loan at risk, but the borrower needs to know that some idiot messed with their documents and broke the law.

In order to prevent that from happening in the future, draw a line after the end of the name along the blank, even a slightly squiggly one to prevent someone from adding names or words.

Reply by Pat/IL on 2/14/09 1:58am
Msg #277499

I'd send a new acknowledgment.

I'll bet the person who committed the crime is not from your state, and was not aware that your state does not allow representative capacity on your acknowledgments. Some states do. Ignorance is no excuse, I'll agree with you on that one. But turning in a low-paid post-closing clerk for what that person most likely thought was a simple correction? And what makes you think the borrower would be more concerned with a notary certificate than with the possible loss of their rate lock?

Sorry, Marian, I tend to agree with most of what I've read from you on this board - but I think you are way off on this one. I really think this kind of thing would fall flat with any law enforcement, and the borrower would be unappreciative.

Reply by Donna LaBelle on 2/14/09 2:06am
Msg #277500

Re: I'd send a new acknowledgment.

I agree with Marian. People need to learn not to alter what we do- if they think this is ok, what else will they alter? I have heard too many untruths from too many lenders and title companies and have had borrowers get upset because they were told that various types of id's were acceptable that actually aren't and the people who are telling them this claim to be "notaries on the side". and this probably isn't some "low paid clerk" I am sure it was someone from the title company who SHOULD KNOW BETTER I don't think it is legal in any state to alter a notarial certificate no matter how much they are earning.

Reply by Pat/IL on 2/14/09 2:40am
Msg #277502

Re: I'd send a new acknowledgment.

"...and this probably isn't some "low paid clerk" I am sure it was someone from the title company who SHOULD KNOW BETTER "

Title companies do employ low-paid clerks, who should know better but don't. You are probably right that no state allows altering a notary certificate.

Go ahead and demand the identity of the offender. If they serve up the guilty party, which they won't, enjoy the prosecution of the criminal if it makes you feel better.

I agree completely that the notarization process should be taken seriously by all parties. From what I read in your post, I gave my honest opinion. I would just let it go. Please understand where I am coming from. I am from Illinois. A bouncer checking IDs outside
a bar has about the same level of responsibility as we notaries do here.

Reply by sue_pa on 2/14/09 7:36am
Msg #277516

I agree w/Pat

everyone should take a trip to their local recorders office and look up 100 loans they've notarized ... you'd be surprised the way the certificates (and witness lines) look as recorded compared to the way they looked when you sent them in.

It may not be 'right' but no one is going to prosecute. No borrower is going to give up their loan. No one will ever know who the clerk was who doctored the documents.

If you look up 1000 of your loans, and you knew the original loan amounts, you'd also find one or two with different loan amounts ... entire document packages are changed out and you have no idea.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/14/09 11:38am
Msg #277549

Re: I agree w/Pat

Well, when I said to find out who... I meant more the company or division rather than the specific individual. I'd report the circumstances to the SOS, send a letter to the "offending" agency letting them know that I reported them and then leave it with the SOS. If they follow-up, fine. If not... I can't control that, but at least I know I would have done my part. Frankly, I don't really care how little one is paid, they should know and should be trained not to mess with a notarial block. There is no excuse, and they should be held accountable.

And I will not be a "team" player and break the law just to fix another wrong. If that costs me some business, so be it. My integrity is worth more than a paycheck and I refuse to work with those who think it's okay to skirt the rules. California notaries have a LOT of potential fines and jail time for messing up, and I will not be part of it. If others want to take that risk, that's entirely their decision. But, if anyone asks me to send a loose certificate -- forget it. I will fix it, sure... but I will be paid anew for the effort. I'll even travel to the TC's office and attach a new certificate if that's what it takes provided they pay me to do it, especially if one of their employees botched it.

Sue's suggestion is a good one. I make regular trips to recorder's office and look not only my work but that of others for business research. I've yet to see anyone modify one of my blocks... and when I do, I will make note of it.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/14/09 7:20am
Msg #277509

Right or wrong, it is done by some very large TCs, has been for years and they truly see nothing wrong with 'the way we've always done it'. You can be a (to them) PITA notary & go for blood. Or, you can be a team player and send 'em a new Ack. Or you can request a new doc, new trip, new fee and do it again. Take your choice.

Reply by LynnNC on 2/14/09 11:35am
Msg #277548

How did the borrowers sign the documents - Indiv or Trustee?

If the borrowers did not sign the documents in their capacity as trustees, then that information should not be on the acknowledgement. If they did sign as trustees, it was your error to not have the correct ack. If that is the case, I would send a loose acknowledgement with the following information at the bottom:
Name of Document
Date of Document
# of Pages
Name of Signers
Capacity of Signers - Trustee

With this information on the acknowledgement, it cannot be used for any other purpose than to be for the original DOT. I would date the ack the date of the closing as that was the date you witnessed their signatures.

Reply by GWest on 2/14/09 12:00pm
Msg #277551

Re: How did the borrowers sign the documents - Indiv or Trustee?

In the State of California we can not add capacity to the acknowledgement, only the name of the person that signed the document, no trustee, no POA, no President, etc.

Reply by LynnNC on 2/14/09 3:15pm
Msg #277564

Re: How did the borrowers sign the documents - Indiv or Trustee?

I see from the profile of the person who began this thread that she lives in CA. In NC there is special language for the acknowledgement of a trustee.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/17/09 8:26pm
Msg #277828

Re: How did the borrowers sign the documents - Indiv or Trustee?

Yes, that's a very state-specific thing and we should all be cautious about making any kind of blanket statement about how to complete any notary certificate. I'm assuming that this was just a momentary slip and that you know better than this, Lynn...

Reply by rengel/CA on 2/17/09 12:09pm
Msg #277760

In California just say NO

You should not risk your commission, your finances or your reputation by sending a blank acknowledgment to anyone. And we do not certify as to capacity.

For those of you in other states, do what your State's laws allow.

California notaries, PLEASE do not listen to random advise from someone in another state as to what their State allows. California has very specific notary laws and it will be YOUR behind paying that large fine and/or YOUR behind sitting in that jail cell.

My .02

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/17/09 8:33pm
Msg #277832

Re: In California just say NO

Another option is to have them return the original document and certificate to you to replace (and to personally destroy) the tampered with one. I don't see that another trip to the borrower would be necessary. You did, in fact, have them appear before you and sign that document on that date and enter it into your journal. If you just send a replacement loose acknowledgement, you then have an unattached certificate with your signature and seal floating around. They've already tampered with it once...