Posted by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 7:41pm
Msg #274405

Passport vs. Passport Card

I had a chance to see the new passport card today and it occurred to me that this may pose a problem. The Sec. of State considers the card to be a fully valid passport:

"The passport card is a fully valid passport that attests to the U.S. citizenship and identity of the bearer. As such, the passport card is adjudicated to the exact standards as the passport book. Applicants must provide documents which attest to their U.S. citizenship and identity such as birth and naturalization certificates."


That's great. But if you look at the sample of the card you'll note that there is no signature on the card:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3923.html

That makes validating a signature a bit tough. Fortunately, this wasn't for a notarization but it got me to thinking if anyone had used these yet.

And, for CA notaries... here's a pickle. We're allowed to take passports without all of the required elements... but it seems to me that we should draw the line at no signature even if it is a valid identification and a real passport. It's too late to clarify this with the SOS tonight, but I thought I'd throw this out there to see who'd had experience with it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 7:43pm
Msg #274406

Whoops. I meant the Dept. of State considers it to be a fully valid passport. Good grief, I need a nap.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 1/13/09 8:10pm
Msg #274409

Thanks for posting this, Marian. I do quite a few

general public notarizations and it is always good to know about new gvt issue ID cards. I look forward to reading responses to your post.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 1/13/09 8:42pm
Msg #274414

Thank goodness here in WA they lay it out

Satisfactory evidence of an individual identity shall be based on one of the following:

(1) Current documents issued by a federal or state government with the individual's photograph, signature, and physical description.

Kind of cut and dry for us, no signature no can do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 8:51pm
Msg #274415

Re: Thank goodness here in WA they lay it out

It is in CA ,too... for the most part. The only real exception to the "required elements" of photo, description, signature and serial number are passports since they don't contain a physical description. Although, the handbook does not expressly state that except to say that a valid passport is acceptable.

The card is a valid passport... hence the question. Looking at this card, it's all good fine, but it seems to be on the same lines of the DoD Common Access Cards. Great... and obviously a good ID, but just not enough for a notary's purposes.

Reply by Jon on 1/13/09 9:49pm
Msg #274420

Marian said:

"The passport card is a fully valid passport..."

The website says:

"This new travel document can be used to enter the United States from Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean, and Bermuda at land border crossings or sea ports-of-entry."

Doesn't sound like a fully valid passport to me. In fact, I was unable to find the quote you use on the website(not that it's not there, I just can't find it). This card is specifically designed to facilitate faster processing for those that like to take cruises and visit Canada or Mexico. I also find it interesting that it specifies entering the US and not entering other countries. Mexico and Canada do not require a passport for US citizens to enter and visit(at least not the last time I checked, which was a while ago), nor do most Mexican or Caribbean cruise destinations.

BTW, we don't validate signatures, we verify identity. If we can reasonably verify the identity of the person requesting notarization using the passport card, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to use. The question now becomes can you reasonably verify identity without a sample signature to compare? I would say yes, but of course that is only my opinion.

As an aside, after reading the website, could this be a precursor to a national ID? Just a thought.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 10:01pm
Msg #274421

Here's the page with that quote:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3921.html

It's under "What documents will I need in order to apply for a passport card?"


You are right about the certification of identity, though. It's just a nagging feeling. Since CA allows for a valid passport, and the card is such a document, it seems easy enough. Although, I can always think of situations where it wouldn't be that person, let's say an identical twin perhaps? All you have to go on is the photograph to ascertain identity. At least with a signature, you have two points of data that help be satisfied of identity. And since passports are valid for 10 years... going on a photo alone is dicey.

Reply by Jon on 1/13/09 10:13pm
Msg #274422

It is my opinion that someone at the Dept of State needs to re-word that paragraph. The passport card is not valid for air travel, thus making it less than "fully valid" as it cannot be used for all the same purposes of the passport book. It seems to me that the paragraph you refer to is attempting to stress that you need the same documents to get the card as you would to get the book. Very poorly worded in my opinion, since the card is not valid for air travel, or for travel to countries other than those specified.

Reply by Jon on 1/13/09 10:16pm
Msg #274423

P.S. My signature now looks nothing like my signature from ten years ago.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/13/09 11:51pm
Msg #274426

I think you make a good point. It occurs to me that perhaps a realistic comparison would be the paper renewal card a person receives when then renew their DL in CA. I believe it states that it's as valid as a regular driver license. That would be true if someone was pulled over and needed to prove their right to drive. However, that doesn't make it valid for ID purposes (verified with the SOS office).

My gut feeling is that the same would be true for the Passport Card. While it might suffice for certain travel purposes, I wouldn't feel comfortable using it as ID without all of the other "qualifying characteristics" that a full Passport has. I've yet to see one, but it sounds like the signature is the major element missing. I think that would be enough for me to not want to accept it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/14/09 12:13am
Msg #274427

That's kind of how I feel, too, Janet. The card I saw today had no signature and no place for one, either. It was official looking enough...and it has plenty of security features, but it only had his first and last name, gender, date and place of birth and a photo. He said that he'd tried to use it at a bar last weekend and the bouncer thought it was a joke.

From what I've read of it, the card's real use is the RFID tag that, when the person approaches a border checkpoint, pops up a file with all of the data. That' great for border patrol and the Feds, but not really anyone else.

At any rate, I'm going to inquire with the SOS tomorrow about it. It's just such a new thing that I doubt they've really bothered to consider it.

Reply by Teddog/CO on 1/14/09 6:54am
Msg #274431

Marian it makes you wonder what people are thinking. Just use you drivers license, state photo ID card or military ID for common ID purposes.
You would "think" people would realize the average person has no idea what a Passport card even looks like. Guess the guy was just "showing off" his new toy. I'm just guessing but you would have to carry a government scanner to be sure the card was the real-deal. Yikes!

Reply by Teddog/CO on 1/14/09 6:44am
Msg #274430

I have not seen one of the new Passport cards either. Here in Colorado we must see a government issued, current photo ID. I even ask for proper ID from people that are "personally known to me." Like you Janet I would insist on seeing a valid photo ID, no exceptions.

Have a great day all.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/14/09 6:59am
Msg #274433

Re: Passport vs. Passport Card - I'll accept it.

From: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/edinfo.shtml

"(5) whether the signer, grantor, or maker is personally known by the notary public, was identified by an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States, or was introduced to the notary public and, if introduced, the name and residence or alleged residence of the individual introducing the signer, grantor, or maker;"

The Texas "rules" don't require a signature on the card.

Reply by TRG_wy on 1/14/09 9:16am
Msg #274436

Here it is

http://travel.state.gov/passport/ppt_card/ppt_card_3926.html

Reply by Gary_CA on 1/14/09 4:12pm
Msg #274476

Passport Card = Worthless

Nevermind for notarization. Why in the world would I want a passport card that allows me to go most of the places I think I'll go instead of a passport that allows me to go anywhere. At the border in San Diego they'll know all about passport cards, but at the airstrip in Oaxaca you better hope the local muckety-muck is in a mood to take a card when he's expecting a booklet.

I just renewed my passport and it took me about 32 seconds to decide that card was for the birds.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 1/14/09 6:58pm
Msg #274490

Just a Guess...

...but did you take "32 seconds" in honor of Sandy Koufax, the best lefthander the game of baseball has ever known?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/14/09 4:40pm
Msg #274479

After talking with the SOS's office today -- they basically told me (and this is for CA) that if it is a valid US passport, then it is acceptable ID, so long as the notary is satisfied that the person presenting the ID is the person signing the document. If the notary isn't satisfied, then the notary can request another form of ID.

That's not much help... but the basic emphasis was that the notary needs to be satisfied. And that's a fairly relative concept.