Posted by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 4:34pm
Msg #276060

State of the economy and acceptance of fees....

It amazes me to see how many people on this site and others try and charge rates from 2 years ago. WAKE UP!! I talk to fellow notaries that state that they wont go below $100 for a signing and I tell them that they are crazy. I will take $75 signings all day away from those that still pound there chests and say "no way, too low"!! I guess some of you would rather wait for what could be coming rather than take what is in front of you....I can do 8 $75 signings a day while the idiots that will only do $100-125 get about 1-2 per day...do the math!!!

That's my 2 cents!!

Reply by JulieD/KS on 1/31/09 4:36pm
Msg #276061

Go for it. I'll hold to my fees. I'd rather stay home than to lower my fee. But then, I'm diversified and signings are not the only way I earn money.

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 4:46pm
Msg #276062

I dont know about you but I dont get paid to sit at home....and yes I also have other sources of income as well.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/31/09 5:09pm
Msg #276063

Who cares about 2 year old rates.

I took my first signing for 25 bucks and had my @22 handed to me.

Take a look at the posts detailing the costs before you beat your chest at us.
Maybe you can make it at 75 a pop, go for it. With the increased costs to ME of paper, gas, daycare, printer and toner, etc. etc., not to mention time involved...

Basically, it's not worth it to me to accept less than what I do. I'm still getting $200 signings in some cases because I stand my ground. One of the agencies here that people complain about being a lowballer has paid me that fee, then has called again to become a repeat customer. If you are not there to take the low fee, they call me back. After you've royally screwed it up, they call me to do it over.

Try doing this in my area where the edge of 'town' is twenty miles away through the hills, then brag about how low you are willing to go.

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 5:39pm
Msg #276065

Re: Who cares about 2 year old rates.

Steven, when you live in the middle of nowhere and you are one of the only games in town then you can stand your ground but when there are hundreds of notaries in a few square miles in most major cities you cant do that!!

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/31/09 7:41pm
Msg #276076

Believe it or not, I do have competition out here

...and they are falling by the wayside judging by the calls I'm getting for long runs in other people's territories.

They either aren't getting paid enough to survive, or the SS/TC is getting what they pay for and sending me out to redo it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/31/09 7:47pm
Msg #276078

Re: Believe it or not, I do have competition out here

And that's how the good ones survive. The one who always take low fees will eventually die out or quickly realize they're not cut out for the business. The bad ones won't get phone calls, and they'll eventually fade away. In CA, at least, there are fewer new notaries coming to the business because of the new laws. Fine by me!

I had a SS tell me yesterday that there is a high demand where I live now... and I was shocked that they couldn't find anyone because this area is just saturated with notaries. Apparently, a lot of them simply aren't working anymore.

And this was one of the SSs that pays well, too.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/31/09 6:31pm
Msg #276069

Re: Who cares about 2 year old rates.

The only thing that really irritates me about those who stick to their guns about the higher rates are the ones who include daycare costs as part of doing business. Daycare, babysitters and nannies are NOT business expenses unless you go through the trouble of set it up properly.


Here's more about that:
http://www.smsmallbiz.com/taxes/Getting_a_Tax_Write-Off_for_Your_Nanny_Can_Be_Tricky.html


It really irks me to see some here who include that as part of their justification for accepting fees or not. Childcare is a PERSONAL issue. My own opinion is that if you can't afford to work unless it pays for your childcare, then you need to rearrange a few priorities in your life or make other personal arrangements. The business world doesn't care about your kids.

I know that sounds harsh... especially from someone like me who is the oldest of 5 with a mother who was widowed at age 44 and raised us alone. I know the struggles more than some of you could ever imagine. Personally? I completely applaud those who want to stay home with a flexible schedule. That's what I want, too! But, I would, never.... ever consider the cost of childcare when accepting a job or not.

Yes, I know you need the money to pay for childcare in order to be able to leave the house... I get that. But that's not OUR problem... it's not an industry related problem, either. Paying us for our business costs (printing costs, travel, etc.) is part of it, though. Personal expenses come out of your profit margin.

I know what I need in order to make a profit in order to cover my business expenses, pay the bills, keep the lights on, etc. But, I'm not going to itemize those out to justify my fees to a SS or TC. I have my fees... and depending on the circumstances I'm willing to negotiate. Everything is negotiable! And if you need to charge $200 to maintain your profit margin and survive? Awesome... just don't get irate with those who don't and who have fewer expenses. If you can get those rates, though, even better! Yes, it is irritating to know that a SS is getting $250 (or more) to get docs signed and they only want to pass on $75 to the person doing the actual work. In fact, it's downright immoral if you ask me. But, we don't have to take the work, or we can insist on higher fees.

The thing to remember, though, is that an $85 job that is down the street might have a higher profit margin than the $125 job 30 miles away. It's all about true business expenses and how you manage them, and since every business is different, and every job is different, there really is not way to dictate what a "good" fee is or not.


But for sure... childcare is NOT one of those expenses. It may play a factor in your profit margin, but it is NOT an expense.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/31/09 7:10pm
Msg #276075

I want to add...

...I truly admire those that do stick to their guns about the higher fees. If you can demand it, all the power to you! I know I generally won't accept a job if I don't think the profit margin is there, and there are some companies I will never accept work from. But there are others where I am willing to negotiate depending on the circumstances.

The trick is in not compromising YOUR business. Don't worry about the other NSAs... they all have different needs, expenses, experiences and attitudes. What matters is how you run YOUR business and how it matches with your business goals. Stand your ground, not in what others tell you your fees should be... but in what you KNOW your fees should be. If you don't know... then you shouldn't be in business yet. Someone is this field should know their bases fees at the drop of a hat, but they should also be willing to adjust them as situations warrant.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/31/09 7:45pm
Msg #276077

yeah, I forgot, when I take a closing daycare is not part

of my expense in doing business. it costs me nothing in money or time to set that up for each appointment.

Come off it, it's a real cost I have to factor in my business.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/31/09 8:13pm
Msg #276081

Re: yeah, I forgot, when I take a closing daycare is not part

I didn't say is wasn't a cost to factor in... I said it wasn't a business expense. It's a personal one, and personal expenses are part of your profit margin.

Some of us don't need to factor that in, either because we don't have children who need care or we have somebody else who can handle it, or a variety of other reasons. But if I take $150 for a signing that you'd charge $200 for, simply because you need that extra $50 for daycare expenses ... how is that MY problem? Or, the problem of a SS or anyone else? It's not.

When you say that daycare is part of reasoning, it doesn't help your argument for higher fees. That's what I'm saying. Nobody cares that you have kids to care for in this situation. That's something you need to take care of on your own. You simply ask for the extra fee and don't try to justify it by saying you have daycare expenses to justify it. People really get irritated when they hear that... because it's NOT a business expense. It's a consideration in your profit margin...yes... but it's NOT an expense of doing business. There are a LOT of personal considerations we all have in doing business, but the exact reasons needing a larger profit margin to handle those considerations aren't part of doing business.

Maybe you have a $2,000 mortgage payment. Okay great... but what if I only have a $700 rent payment? What if I have to buy expensive medication or medical supplies that you don't? What if I my elderly father-in-law lives with us needs needs care... but you have no such situation?

My point being, those are all personal considerations in HOW we run our individual businesses and why we need a certain profit margin above our business expenses. These things dictate when and how we can accept work, and they vary greatly. But when you start calling a personal consideration a business expense, it takes away from your professionalism, and people notice it.

I never once said you shouldn't charge higher fees. I said it's irritating when people use daycare (or other personal considerations) as an excuse to charge higher fees, while their lambasting others about accepting lower fees. Not everyone needs to pay for daycare. But, we all need to pay for paper, toner, gas, etc. Those are business expenses.

One way around this, I was taught, was to add a surcharge, but not be specific about it. For example, some people charge extra for appointments after 10pm or on Sundays. There could be any number of reasons WHY they do that, but it's a business decision for them, and we shouldn't punish them for it. However if you have to arrange for child care every single time you go out... that's not a surcharge, but part of your profit margin that you just have to markup and accept that some people aren't willing to pay. You don't need to tell them WHY.

If you're getting work, GREAT!!!! I totally support it, because I do think we deserve to be paid more. However, there's always room for negotiation and I know I will take a job that pays less if I know my necessary margin is covered and other circumstances are in place. I know what my threshold is when I'm called for work and I won't drop below it. But what mine is, isn't the same for you, or for anyone else. I do believe that some people can make a decent living off of $85 signings given the right mix of circumstances. I know some people will disagree with that, but I'm more willing to concede that that not everyone has the same expenses and situations.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/09 5:14pm
Msg #276064

No, Jeff - you do the math

If you stuck to your guns and commanded $125-$150 per signing - imagine what you could make doing those 8 in one day - $75 signing and $150 signings all take the same amount of time - you can still do the same number in the same amount of time - and your profit margin is much higher - unless, of course, you're using someone else's resources for printing.

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 5:41pm
Msg #276066

Re: No, Jeff - you do the math

That's funny....like I would be getting 8 at those prices...especially when there are many many notaries in my area, some willing to do it for even cheaper than $75...

I guess it depends on the saturation of notaries in your area...

Reply by Les_CO on 1/31/09 6:52pm
Msg #276071

Re: No, Jeff - you do the math

Ain’t this a great country? Not only can one (in an unregulated business for themselves) charge what they want for their services. They can anonymously get on their computer and berate all those that charge more or less than them. For whatever reasons. I’d guess their motivation is mostly ego driven “pride of authorship”? Jeff says: “do the math”! Well Jeff …MY math says I make more money doing one $125 signing, than three $50 signings. Not more gross…just more net. And may I add…I really couldn’t care less what some inept non-thinker charges, or why he thinks his way is the only way. And I won’t go into all the reasons for, as Jeff calls us, “fellow notaries” to ignore such dense advice as to ‘lower the bar’ and turn a marginally profitable business into one that loses money. I think we that have done this more than twice already understand, and have indeed witnessed our current trend of lower offers, and fees, do partially to the vast increase of “signing agents” produced by the NNA’s get-rich-quick, or make-a-fortune-part-time campaign, to enrich themselves while churning out a multitude of inept ‘certified signing agents’ eager to get some of those big bucks. The entire banking/financial/government fiasco of late hasn’t helped either. I will say that in “Attorney States” unaffected by the NNA’s actions, folks doing ‘signings’ are still doing just fine, and charging hundreds of dollars for what Jeff apparently does for a pittance. My advice to all you new guys is to listen to and follow Jeff’s advice!!!! Do lots of signings, cheap & fast!! I don’t need the competition. To you ‘old hands’ I say “consider the source”.

Reply by docs1954CA on 1/31/09 7:06pm
Msg #276073

Your 2 cents is worth just that; 2 cents,maybe less.... n/m

Reply by Rick Ary on 1/31/09 7:07pm
Msg #276074

Well said Les. Is this a great country or what?

Reply by Les_CO on 1/31/09 8:16pm
Msg #276082

Re: State of the economy and acceptance of fees....Rick

Thanks Rick!
Rod Blagojevich use to think so! I’ve heard he’s signed up for the NNA’s Certified Signing Agent study program. Apparently he needs to make some big $ fast. His wife too. The background check should be okay…if done quickly. Maybe Jeff can give him some ‘business-economics’, and ‘how-to’ pointers?

Reply by parkerc/ME on 1/31/09 8:08pm
Msg #276080

Hmmm. Sounds like you need to re-do your math. The way I figure it, here's the time needed for a normal refi signing . . . and I think I might be a little conservative on these figures.
½ hr download/print 2 sets of 100-150 pg edocs
½ hr travel to BO
1 hr at table
½ hr ret travel
equals 2 ½ hr per signing x 8 signings a day = 20 hours.
I don't think I'd like to be the BO at your table on the 8 job days. You must be running on Bolt or high-octane something! JMHO

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 8:19pm
Msg #276084

Are you serious with your time estimates -

A 1/2 hour to download and print - What is your printer from 1970?
1hr at table - most of my borrowers ask "how fast can you go" - we are done in 20 minutes

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 1/31/09 8:28pm
Msg #276087

**Please enlighten me all with your costs***

I know how much each jobs costs and how to be efficient in this industry but would love to hear how much it costs you per job in expenses etc. - Break it down!

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/31/09 8:32pm
Msg #276089

bah! You're just trolling. n/m

Reply by parkerc/ME on 1/31/09 8:41pm
Msg #276092

Re: bah! You're just trolling.

Agree, Steven. Nuff said.

Reply by Les_CO on 1/31/09 8:51pm
Msg #276094

Re: **Please enlighten me all with your costs***

Well Jeff…May I, for one, thank you for your posts? I only had one signing today, and didn’t want to do the paperwork (read taxes) that I started (and need) to do, so I opened NR’s chat board. It’s been entertaining, but by now we all know you are either a troll, (or shill) for the likes of FASS, or Nations Direct. Or perhaps someone that while surfing the net came across this chat board by accident, and decided to comment. I’ve concluded this from your meaningless responses to the answers/questions posted by the other “real” members here, that I actually find relevant, useful, or entertaining.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 1/31/09 8:32pm
Msg #276090

You are obviously not doing the normal 100-150 pg signings that most of us are doing. There is no way, no matter how fast your printer is. . . that you can download 150 pages of .pdf files, print two sets of them, gather them together, and be out the door in less than 30 minutes from receipt of doc. And to do a 100-150 pg signing in 20 minutes or less . . .I will restate. . . I would not want to be a borrower signing documents at your table . . . rush jobs make for big mistakes! And redo's by another more competent notary.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/09 9:32pm
Msg #276101

"most of my borrowers ask "how fast can you go" -

"we are done in 20 minutes"

Well, if that didn't just blow your credibility out of the water I don't know what did... unless you're talking about 3-page modifications - if you're doing a full signing in 20 minutes you're cheating not only the borrowers but the companies you work for..

Of Course, they DO get what they pay for.

Reply by Gary_CA on 1/31/09 8:33pm
Msg #276091

Before you work cheap you gotta ask yourself...

Do I want to work my a$$ off and be poor, or would I rather sit home and watch TV and be poor?

I'm not sure that $75 is the bright line for that decision, but there is a line and it's gotta be above your expenses enough to make it worthwhile.

What's the difference between 4 jobs for $150 and 8 for $75?? A helluva lot of free time, that's what.

Like I said, everyone has to decide, and truth is I take some $75 signings now and again. First off, I don't think that you can really double your volume at $75 but even if you can, there is a point of diminishing, and finally no, returns on working cheap.

All the prosperity you can handle in 2009

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/31/09 8:42pm
Msg #276093

I like Gary's approach. n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 1/31/09 9:03pm
Msg #276095

Re: Before you work cheap you gotta ask yourself...

Gary…IMO…And I’m not a professor of economics… there is no “economy of scale” in the service industry. We got to do it “one-at-a-time”. Unless you can get 22 borrowers, with the same doc’s, in the same room, at the same time, and watch’um sign….. You can’t give any “discounts”! Time is time, talent is talent. That’s what we are selling…time, (convenience) and talent (except for some)

Reply by Todd/OH on 2/1/09 12:16am
Msg #276116

This quorum sparked a nerve -

And it really didn't solve much. It did reveal the difference between those of us who would work for cheap and those of us who provide professionalism and quality work. That $100+ fee represents something - a professional.

Reply by Todd/OH on 2/1/09 12:07am
Msg #276115

Price of gas, my time -

I don't find it necessary to lower my fees. My fees are set because there is quality behind my work and I have expenses. If I don't get calls because of my fee, it's only because I haven't marketed myself. I won't allow myself the impression of being a cheapskate. It's simply not professional.

Never mind that your doctor or grocer won't lower their prices. We all moan at both.

Reply by MW/VA on 2/1/09 8:17am
Msg #276121

There has definitely been a shift in the market and lower fees are being offered. It is an individual/business decision to adjust or not. It is good business to adjust to market changes.
Imagine real estate agents who would insist on selling homes only for what they were going for a couple of years ago. It's time for a reality check.
I found that I did more signings this past month, but made less money. That may sting a bit, but I am still doing plenty of business & that's what really matters.

Reply by janCA on 2/1/09 9:16am
Msg #276126

I think we might all agree that Jeff hasn't been doing signings all that long; if he were, he'd not be taking these kinds of fees. When I first started out quite a few years ago, I was accepting $50 fees, I was thrilled. It didn't take me long to figure it out, once I came across NR. Each month I would increase my fee a little bit at a time. Within the year most SS's had no problem paying the $XXX. And now when I do get someone offering me $75, $90 for a full refi, I just politely say, no thank you, I'll pass on that. I won't burn any bridges as they may call for me to do a Grant Deed or something that will take about 5-15 min. and offer me $50-$75 and the customer is within 5-10 mins from me. I have a structured settlement today. Docs went to borrower, no splaining to do, about 7 notarizations, $XXX. cha-ching! Lives 4 mins from me. It's been said many times on this forum, learn to work smarter, not harder. We all eventually, figure it out and Jeff will too.

Reply by MW/VA on 2/1/09 12:02pm
Msg #276142

I'm in this full-time as a business and have all the associated expenses. I do have a tendency to forget that there are part-timers, who have full time jobs, and some even can print docs at their job, etc. IMO, many of those who accept low fees fall into this category.