Posted by VioCa on 1/2/09 9:18pm
Msg #273390

What would you do under these circumstances

I had a signing tonight with the LO present and when I brought up the issue that the ID did not match the Grant deed, the LO addressed to the borrower that it is not the law but I am a silly Notary. After I asked him not to insult me he told me that I am an idiot. In seven years I had to put up with a lot and never left an appointment but this one crossed the line, so I left, but not before he treathened me that I will never work again in this business.
I may be done, but at least I do not feel bad about myself that I let this jerk to intimidate me into doing something ilegal

Reply by Sarah/CA on 1/2/09 9:34pm
Msg #273391

You did absolutely the right thing in leaving. I would contact who hired me and let them know how the signing went and why you left. You do not have to put up with being belittled in front of the borrowers. That was completely unprofessional of the LO. Without us they don't get their commission check either.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/2/09 9:37pm
Msg #273392

So, are you saying that the ID said John Doe and

the name on the deed was Johnny Dough?

Reply by VioCa on 1/2/09 9:39pm
Msg #273393

Re: So, are you saying that the ID said John Doe and

Yes, pretty much like that

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/2/09 11:58pm
Msg #273407

Holey Moley. My money's on you. I'd bet a dollar I

don't have that *your* reputation remains in tact...in fact, just a bit more polished.

"Just a *silly* notary"? Whoo boy. I have the words, just can't put them here...

Reply by Notary/Guy on 1/2/09 9:47pm
Msg #273395

Grant deeds are very dangerous..... Name's have to match i will not do it.LO dont care about you or your notary lic.walk maybe even run...

Reply by jba/fl on 1/2/09 9:57pm
Msg #273400

It's a shame you didn't have your notary handbook to pop open and reference the law while right there...what a jerk he was to you.

Reply by Pamela Elliott on 1/2/09 10:22pm
Msg #273402

You did the right thing.....and he knows it.

Reply by Angelina Saenz on 1/2/09 11:43pm
Msg #273406

If I were you I would report him to whatever governmental department keeps his license, what a jerk! I bet you he is a big old thief!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/3/09 1:06am
Msg #273409

If it were me, I would have pulled out my green handbook and pointed out pages 10 and 41-42. Page 10 spells it out in plain English, and pages 41-42 are the exact Civil Code that pertains to identification procedures.

Then I would point out page 37 where it expressly details in the government code that you, as a notary can be held civilly liable for failure to perform your duties. I would remind the couple that my job as a notary is, as a public servant, to help prevent fraud. Sometimes, these things happen, but in the interest of everyone involved, the name needed to be correct on the deed. Oh, and not only that... I would then point out that the loan officer could also be held liable for asking and coercing you into doing something illegal. I would then ask him if he wanted to push the issue any further.

If he still wanted to persist, I would make sure I had his business card and would simply excuse myself and leave and immediately sit down and note what happened so when I got home I would have note to write a certified letter to the Secretary of State reporting this loan officer.

It's frustrating, but there's no need to get angry over a jerk who thinks he's better than you.

Reply by VioCa on 1/3/09 3:48am
Msg #273412

Now, it is easier said then done, I have the Notary law with me all the time but in this particular situation I was not dealing with a decent person so I kind of used my judgement for that moment and only told him to check with the Secretary of State. There was no point in exposing me to even more verbal abuse. I am pretty sure that he would have thrown the law in my face. A few years ago in a similar situation I had to run to my car fearing for my safety. That time it wasn't the LO, it was the borrower.

I was thinking to report him, but after I asked the borrowers if they witnessed the way this person talked to me, the LO answered for them that nobody heard him telling me that I am an idiot, so it is my word against three people that can lie wathever they want.

Reply by Teddog/CO on 1/3/09 7:28am
Msg #273420

VioCa you did the right thing "No can do!" and walk out. The up-side you still have your license and don't go to jail. You live to "Stamp" another day with pride.

It sounds as if that LO is way to comfortable with those tactics he is using. I would be willing to bet that was not the first time he tried to bully a notary. Scary to think how many people "caved-in" and actually did it.

VioCa keep up the good work

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/3/09 9:23am
Msg #273429

After reading Marian's post...

How about copying those pages from your handbook and sending them to him at his company (on the 1003) with a short note..."after meeting with you the other evening at xx signing, I thought I'd send a copy of this information on to you for your future reference. I apologize that this "silly notary" a/k/a this "idiot" didn't have extra copies of them at the time of our meeting. Thank you for your time." Or something like that...

Oh, and of course, make sure you send a copy to his manager...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/3/09 11:40am
Msg #273439

Re: After reading Marian's post...

I totally agree with Linda. You need to follow up on this. Don't just let it go. Make sure his superior gets a copy of your letter, and absolutely report him to the SOS. If he was using those tactics on you, what was he using on the borrowers to get them to sign outside of your presence?

Nope... I guess I'm just not the type to back down for something that is right. I especially don't like bullies or people who think they can belittle other people into compliance. I applaud you for giving in to him. As the others have noted, by doing so you keep your integrity and your commission, which is more important than anything that guy could have said to you.

I took a marketing class this fall and we were reading a study that said less than 10% of people who are dissatisfied with a service actually let the person or company know about it. They usually just walk away or "let it go" thinking it won't make a difference or they convince themselves that their silence is enough. That isn't always the case. If a company or person can continually get away with a behavior without being checked or punished... they will continue to do it. Our teacher pointed out that this attitude tends to span across a lot of situations. For example, if police ticket less than 10% of of the speeders they encounter, it will have little impact on a speeding problem.

That same goes for jerks like this LO. He obviously felt comfortable enough to act that way in front of borrowers, which means he's done it before. We all know he's wrong, but by staying silent... you actually encourage him to continue because he knows he'll get away with it. And you know darn well that he'll make up a story about you as to why the signing wasn't finished. The way to stop this kind of thing is to speak up.

Do what Linda suggested. Copy it down... write a letter to him and his boss, and contact the SOS. It's worth it so that he knows he didn't get away wth his actions as well as helping to improve our profession. As it is, people don't really understand what we do as notaries. Our job may be seemingly simple, but it's a big deal. I mean, the state sure made us go through a lot just to get our commissions, and there's a reason for it.

Reply by Kate/CA on 1/3/09 1:50am
Msg #273411


Did he try and coerce you to notarize even thou the name did not match? If so check
code 8225 and call the SOS.

Reply by sue_pa on 1/3/09 7:35am
Msg #273421

I am, as usual odd man out on this. Certainly everyone has their own boundaries, and tolerance levels. BUT, I'm going to guess from the facts given that she also didn't handle this situation properly. We've all said it before ... there is his side, her side and the truth. I'm guessing the truth lies in the middle here ... due to Vios second post ...

...was thinking to report him, but after I asked the borrowers if they witnessed the way this person talked to me...

What in the world kind of "conversation" was going on in this room with Vio asking the borrowers this question? She also said she had to leave another appt. previously due to a borrower.

If she was correct about the id, she was correct. If he was a total jerk about it he was a jerk. There is no question from the posts on the boards that id issues continually present problem situations for all of us. BUT, again, I'm guessing people skills are lacking - perhaps on both sides but she can't control his. Doing what's right and retaining the client is one of the biggest challenges of our jobs.

Reply by VioCa on 1/3/09 9:17am
Msg #273428

Well, Sue Pa let me clarify it for you. I left the other appointment because I was attacked by a man that was under the impresion that if I am in his house he can refuse to show ID and I have to Notarize because that is why I am there. What I was trying to point out is that people can get really agresive when it does not come out the way they want. It is posible that that borrower had something to hide or maybe he was not informed of how this process works, he was agressive. I did not walk away, I was forced to leave if that makes a difference.

Now, in this new situation, I asked them if they witnessed because I was under shock and could not believe what I heard. I have not insulted him back and that is people skills in my opinion. When I asked the question I was on my way out anyway.
And then, with all the respect but who does he think he is to talk like that with anybody. I may be doing a job only, but I deserve the same respect that I give or I am out of there.

We often see in some stores "we reserve the right to refuse service to anybody", and so do I uunder those circumstances.

Reply by Leon_CO on 1/3/09 9:47am
Msg #273431

Try humor

I had a closing a few weeks ago that tempted me to walk out. The husband was really nice. But his wife was a real nasty lady. (I feel sorry for him.)

She wanted to read the borrower's copies while we were doing the signing. I kindly suggested to her that I didn't want to get the documents mixed up. She really blew a gasket. I have never seen anyone get so angry during a closing.

I really want to get up and leave. But all I could think of was, 'Be professional.'

I remembered something I learned a long time ago. The best way to keep a bomb from exploding is to diffuse it. The 'bomb' in this case being the borrower's wife. I began commenting on some of the things about their surroundings. They lived in a neighborhood where wild animals often find their way. Colorado Springs has lots of places like that. It wasn't long before we were telling amusing anecdotes.

The bomb didn't go off, and the rest of the closing went smoothly. Humor can cut through what might seem the most impenetrable armor -- if you can find the right spot.

Good luck.


P.S. Sorry that you had such a bad experience.

P.S.S. After the closing I would have taken the loan officer out back and whooped his butt.

Reply by VioCa on 1/3/09 10:09am
Msg #273433

Re: Try humor

Leon, I once witnessed a fight between the spouses with furniture flying around but did not walk out, at the end the husband told me that I am a very patient person and thanked me that I stayed put and helped to get the loan signed.
I am patient and I thought I know how to handle any difficult situation, untill I was under attack. This is what happened yesterday, from threats to deal with me on Monday if I do not agree to commit an illegal act to verbal abuse, so I guess I was not prepared for it, because I never thought it exists. For sure I am more prepared to take it from the borrowers than from the LO that should know the rules better than the borrowers

Reply by MW/VA on 1/3/09 10:16am
Msg #273434

Good for you for sticking to your guns. It sounds like he tried to use these tactics to get you to do something you know you couldn't. As far as the threat of never working again, at least you will still have your commission and be able to continue to work. Thank you for maintaining a position of respect for the notary profession.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 1/3/09 11:34am
Msg #273438

I think I would do a few things differently here folks. Vio is taking the insults personal and this is business, never let personal feelings interfer with business dealings, you lose your professionalism. The important FACT is that the ID didn't match the GD, an extremely important "you snooze you loose" doc. The word "fraud" comes instantly to mind.

I'd document everything that happened just to remind me of those little details we forget over time. Armed with all pertinent information regarding the client AND the LO I'd be knocking on the front door of my state rep's. The timing is perfect for one of your local boys to pick up this ball and run the field with it. One of the contributing factors of the meltdown is exactly what this LO was attempting to do so IF you really want to show him what a big idiot you are....roll on with what you've got. In a war of words it's always he said/she said but you have facts going on here that you're ignoring...ID PROBLEMS!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/3/09 12:01pm
Msg #273442

One thing I really like about CA notary law (and there are many... but I really like this one) is the fact that we, as notaries have some "ammunition" of sorts when it comes to situations like this: California Government Code 8225. Obviously, we can't dole out legal advice... but we can tell people up front that a) what they're asking is illegal and show in the law to be true and b) if they ask again, California Government code 8225 says that they, themselves are breaking the law just by asking.

It can all be done with the green handbook and pointing out specific pages. It tends to shut them up, and it's not coming from from the notary... but from a "third" source. That helps deflect the blame and diffuse the situation most of the time.

This is especially important important for docs like a deed that will be recorded and can so easily be proven to be a screw-up on the notary's part.

Reply by VioCa on 1/3/09 12:36pm
Msg #273448

I am not ignoring the ID issue SueW/Tn, after all this is why everything started and then, you are right, I took it personally because he crossed the line and addressed a personal insult to me and that was not business anymore when he pointed the finger to me and told me " you are an idiot". Business was when I pointed out the requirements in terms of identification in a professional manner.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/3/09 1:35pm
Msg #273451

I guess that's where I would have just sat there and smiled, and said something like, "Sir, I have a legal obligation to prevent fraud, and that includes protecting these borrowers. What you are insisting I do is illegal and per CA government code 8225 if you ask me again or if you try to coerce me you are breaking the law and I will not hesitate to report you to your manager, the Secretary of the State of California, and possibly even the local police. Do you understand?"

But that's me. I've had a lot of experience dealing with emotional and forceful people like that. I get insulted all the time. It doesn't mean it doesn't bother me, but I just try to ignore the personal insults and stay focused. I'll cry later when I'm out of the situation.

And yes... I have been in scary situations like that before. I've learned that you can't let them think they're bothering you at all, and you have to keep things in a way that says, "I'm the messenger and there is somebody bigger and scarier that will come after you if you keep this up."

It's not easy... and it's not fair. But that LO would not have done anything physical in the presence of his borrowers. That would have been stupid. I might have even pulled out voice recorder at some point, put it on the table and said, "I'm recording this so there is no question..." and take it from there. Something will eventually shut him up.

Like I said, though... you're to be applauded for not giving in to him. There are a lot of notaries out there who would simply because they were scared. Thing is, we're public officials, and that means dealing with all kinds of people. It's not a job for people who get scared, no matter how easy it might seem.

Reply by VioCa on 1/3/09 2:07pm
Msg #273452

I totally agree with you Marian, the last part of the meeting was with me under shock. But I learned from all the posts and this is going to help me in the future. That is why I brought this up on this board, to learn from others experiences. We are all humans after all. Some know better than others how to deal with people like this LO. I am always trying to keep open to suggestions of how to improve the work I do.

Other than a Signing Agent I am an accountant which is a very hard job in any company. So I leaned while doing accounting work that when you are dealing with people's money it can get frustrating sometimes. You have to maintain some ethics in that line of work to, the owners always want their accountant to do someting unethical to cover their back. Like show profits for the purpose of getting a loan from the bank and show losses on the tax returns.

Just like the Loan Agents, they want their commision so they are trying to pursue the Notary to do it even when it is not ok, like they care about what is it going to happen to the Notary if caught at fault of not being careful enogh.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/4/09 1:58am
Msg #273466

Good for you for asking and looking to improve. I suspect that's the primary reason most of us began coming to this board. I'm always learning something new here.

I pretty much agree with Marian on this. I've found myself with several inadequate ID situations recently, but fortunately, it's been a long time since I've had a LO get beligerent with me. The last time the latter happened, we were in his office (he was the manager) and he was telling me I was wrong and literally screaming at me. I did pull out my SOS Handbook (he pulled out the NNA handbook - which was wrong on the issue in question). I then called the SOS office - which I have on speed dial in my cell phone - and let the person on the phone tell him he was wrong.

I have found that when dealing with an out of control person, the most effective thing is to not react to their behavior at all. Don't interrupt them, but continue to calmly address your comments to the issue at hand, not their behavior or anything else. If you can maintain your cool while they are losing theirs, it's very clear to all present who the professional is and who is the idiot. You just have to put on your armour (visualize a forcefield around yourself ) and let the insults bounce off. If you are able to do so, it's amazing how often you can diffuse the situation and possibly even come up with a solution. (Credible witnesses, maybe?) I'd much rather leave a situation like that with the satisfaction of having turned the situation around and having the person end up apologizing for their behavior. If you react, you're just lowering yourself to their level. That's something I refuse to do. [The more they raise their voice, the more I lower mine. [Try it... it works!]

There IS a point at which I will just pack up and leave, but the situation mentioned above with the loan office manager is the only time (thank goodness) that I've ever had to do that since I first became a notary 8 1/2 years ago. He was on the phone with me an hour later apologizing all over the place and begging me to come back. (He wasn't manager of that office for too much longer, BTW...)

As for dealing with the inadequate ID situation, what I usually do is first show them the wording on the new CA Acknowledgement where it says "under penalty of perjury..." and explain to them the consequences for me and that things have become much more strict in the past year. I'm very careful to not be confrontational with them. I may apologetically - but firmly - refer to the current economic environment, all the problems we've all read about and why we need to be more careful than ever, how other people's actions are making it difficult for us honest folks, etc., or something along that line. I try to make my comments general, impersonal, and speak of third parties, not them, when explaining why I have no choice. I can rattle them off easily enough, but yes, I've pulled out the current handbook many a time to read them the ID requirements. (One time for an attorney/federal agent who couldn't find his/her DL. That stopped any discussion! )

They may not care about the consequences to me, but they are sure as heck going to know that I DO care and that I'm not about to risk my livelihood to do something illegal or improper and I'm not going to be initimidated. That doesn't require snide comments, a loud voice or abrupt behavior. It just requires demonstrating your convictions and confidence that you know what you're doing. [BTW, these comments are meant in general terms for whomever might care. Hopefully there will be something usefully here.]

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/4/09 10:40pm
Msg #273561

To clarify a statement above

<<There IS a point at which I will just pack up and leave, but the situation mentioned above with the loan office manager is the only time (thank goodness) that I've ever had to do that since I first became a notary 8 1/2 years ago. He was on the phone with me an hour later apologizing all over the place and begging me to come back. (He wasn't manager of that office for too much longer, BTW...)>>

For the record, that was far from the only time I've had to leave a situation without notarizing because of inadequate ID. But it was the only time I've walked out without leaving things civil. Actually, in that case, the borrowers understood and were OK with it; it was the office manager (whose staff didn't do their job by checking ID in advance) who was unglued because he wasn't going to make his month-end numbers.

I think it's all about maintaining one's professionalism, regardless of how the other person(s) react(s).

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/4/09 6:00am
Msg #273473

Customer Service isn't just for nice people ...

Those that offer the greatest challenge have the most to teach us - I mean, if all you ever deal with are nice people, you sure won't gain much experience dealing with challenges, right?

Since we can only go on our imagination's extrapolations in this scenario, it's possible the guy was just power-playing you. The quickest way to stop the game & get on with business with people like that is to GIVE them the 'power' they so desperately need. There's no point in ever letting your ego engage, taking things 'personally' or trying to 'one up' someone like this. The 'power' is meaningless.

So, rather than digging in and trying to go over the top of them - you go 'under' (so to speak), with humility. "I'm sorry, sir - I seem to have gotten off on a bad foot. I know we all want this to go smoothly for Mr/Mrs Borrower - can we start fresh?" Or whatever - offer humility, and the Power Player will usually take their 'win' and leave you alone. Humility isn't a bad thing to practice, you don't 'lose' an ounce of dignity, you gain a successful closing and often the respect of everyone there - as well as your self-respect, for NOT being so insecure that you 'need' to battle egos.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/4/09 9:47am
Msg #273487

Renee, I have to disagree with you here...

IMO, if this scenario is truly the way it went (and all the details are here) then IMO this lout didn't deserve the nice guy routine - he tells the borrowers I'm "silly" and calls me an "idiot" because I choose to follow the law and I turn around and call him "Sir"?? And drip sugar in speaking with him "with humility"?? Not on your life...there is a level a respect between ALL parties that needs to be maintained, and this guy absolutely crossed the line...

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/4/09 10:35am
Msg #273496

But in the end, what do you win?

I defuse these power-players, because there is no 'win' otherwise. It kind of boils down to us being responsible for how others experience us. We have two choices, we can say "His experience doesn't line up with how I view my own self, he's an idiot, he's wrong, and it's not MY problem." - or - we can say "It doesn't matter WHAT my intentions are, if he experiences me as something negative, I would rather turn that around to something positive."

Ultimately - this guy (jerk, idiot, power-player - whatever) is going to carry his negative view of me out into the world. The world wasn't there, the world will never hear my own view (which is shaded to my own benefit, humans do that). An unhappy or angry person is far more likely to speak ill of you than a happy client is likely to praise you - just the way people are.

I just don't care about this perceived power (it's just a perception, nothing real, nothing tangible). It's an ego /power & control struggle, and I'm just going to the bottome line - what does it take to settle the guy down & change his perception to something positive? THAT is win/win.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/4/09 10:39am
Msg #273497

Ahh - important detail, also

When you deal this way with a power-player (basically refusing to play), things never escalate to this point in the first place. I simply can not imagine ever allowing the game to go this far, to the point that someone at a closing table starts calling me names.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/4/09 2:51pm
Msg #273531

Re: Ahh - important detail, also

I do agree that it should never escalate to the point where names are being called... but we all know that no matter good someone is, some people will just pull the bully card because they want to and because they've been able to get away with it before.

Where I disagree with you Renee is in the idea of diffusing it by letting them have the power they want. Absolutely not. It teaches them nothing, except that that they can get what they want.

You can't diffuse a ticking bomb and just let the bomber go because it didn't explode. The bomber still created a very dangerous situation and needs to understand their actions were wrong. If you don't, they'll just get mad and go set another bomb to keep you busy.

Refusing to play with a power player may escalate things on it's own, but not if you establish your power first. Sometimes that means playing tough. I agree with Sue that Vio got too emotional and took it too personally... but even Vio admitted that and said she learned some thing from this thread.

If it were me, the first time the LO peeped about the ID issue would be when I whipped out my handbook in order to establish authority in the situation and deflect it away from me and on to the State law, which he can't argue with there at the table. That would essentially be like saying, "Dude... don't even think about placing a bomb here because I will haul your tail in faster than you can blink."

Don't get me wrong, I am an emotional person, too. But I'm the oldest 5 kids and have dealt with far too many bullies in my life not to know how they work. Once they know they can't get to you AND that their behavior is unacceptable, they will back off. The key is in doing both. If you only do one, they'll just move on to another, easier target. If they still persist... that's when you have to back up your authority. That's why using a third-party to establish authority is so helpful in these situations. Of course you actually have to be willing to follow-through on your report if you tell them you're going to report, otherwise it's useless.

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/4/09 7:34am
Msg #273478

Once again, I'm a bit confused.

Not that what I'm confused about makes any difference. You said 2 things: 1) the ID didn't match the docs. 2) Borrower refused to show any ID. Whether it was #1 or #2, you did the right thing by leaving. All the discussion was beside the point as being unable to ID a signer means those docs are not getting signed! I'd have just packed up & left as quickly as possible after telling them the preceeding facts. I do agree that when people are trying to do something shady--and they get caught, it can get sticky. Best to leave--fast.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 1/4/09 9:23am
Msg #273481

I don't know, I would have been tempted to make him

loose control of his bladder and bowels.
I might have told a little white lie to the broker/LO for fun. I would have been tempted.
I might have questioned him, asking if he did this all the time, that is, bully the notary
into notarizing the signatures of people on documents that were "questionable", or not in line with what the state requires for identification.
Then let him "know" that my day job was a state investigator for mortgage fraud.

Reply by VioCa on 1/4/09 10:47am
Msg #273499

Re: I don't know, I would have been tempted to make him

I think I know why there are problems when there is no proper identification. It is not the first time to be told by the borrowers or by their agent that they never had that issue in the past and that they had the docs notarized with the same id John Dough vs Jon Doe. The only thing I cannot figure out is who in the world would risk their commission, freedom, etc. for a few bucks.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/4/09 3:02pm
Msg #273533

Re: I don't know, I would have been tempted to make him

I think that most of the time when people say, "But it's never been a problem before..." are in one of two camps:

1. They're just lying. They're trying to negotiate and equate their perceived experience with your authority and hope that you'll give in. It's like if you got pulled over for speeding and you told the cop, "Well, officer... I have to say, I've been pulled over 10 times before and this is the first time I've actually received a citation." People aren't stupid enough (let's hope) to say something like that to a cop... so why are they stupid enough to say it to a notary? Well, clearly they don't understand notarial law... but when I hear somebody say that I either go with the response in #2 below or I use the speeding ticket scenario and ask them if they would say that to a cop. The answer is always, "No way, I'm not that stupid." Heh.

2. In some cases, they may have had a notary who knew them personally not require ID. This is easily argued now because CA law has changed to eliminate personal knowledge with notarial acts. That's a great protection for the notary and something we can easily explain by saying, "In the past, if the notary knew you, it was acceptable to not ask for ID and they had more leeway with kind of thing. But in 2008 the notary laws were substantially changed and I am obligated to follow the current law."

Reply by sue_pa on 1/4/09 1:46pm
Msg #273526

After reading her further responses, I stick with my gut feeling ... she had a lot to do with the way this guy (and I am sure she was 100% correct that he was a jerk) acted. How in the world could an adult be "in shock" because someone called them "silly" or an "idiot"? Remember sticks and stones? Just from her tone in these posts days or hours after the fact she fueled this situation from the get go ... I'm guessing her initial statements abuot improper id were also in the wrong tone. "I asked him not to insult me". " I asked the borrowers if they witnessed the way this person talked to me." "I told him to check with the secretary of state". "I ran to my car in fear". Sorry, but I stick with my original opinion that this girl over reacts to every day situations.

Again, her being right and him being wrong are not the point I'm getting to and again, everyone has their own tolerance levels but I am saying I'm betting she helped create this situation.