Posted by Les_CO on 7/17/09 3:54am
Msg #296197

Am I on some idiot list?

Anyone else get this? I received a request from a Canadian Securities firm to “certify” the ID’s of their clients. Because of Canada’s new anti money laundering laws (BillC22). They want me to ID the client, make copies of their (photo) ID (driver license, passport, etc.) affix my official certification, along with their clients signature on said copy, along with a letter stating that I have examined the photograph in the passport or driver’s license of the client and certify that it is a true likeness of the individual who has presented himself/herself to me. I have also examined the signature affixed by the client below in my presence and certify it a true likeness of the signature on the identification I have verified, and send it to them. Yeah…I can do this…and keep a copy of the ID’s (in a safe place…forever?) And according to CO Law I can charge $5 (these people would come to me…no travel) and what maybe 30 cents for the copies, and 44 cents for the stamp to send them? Just what kind of liability would I incur if some of these ‘clients’ turn out to be Hezbollah types with authentic IDs (like those guys from Wisconsin) Or worse, forged but very real looking documents? Sounds like a real moneymaking opportunity? But sadly I don’t think I will have the time do this. If any of you out there want this companies info PM me and I’ll send it to you.
PS I don’t think your E&O insurance covers certifying copies of passports, real or not.

Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 7/17/09 5:44am
Msg #296200

Thanks Les, we aren't permitted to certify copies in Md

Reply by PAW on 7/17/09 8:02am
Msg #296214

In FL we are authorized to attest to photocopies. Of course, it has nothing to do with certifying that the photograph or signature is a "true likeness" of anything. Florida notaries are required to either make the copy (preferred) or at least supervise the making of the copy. Then the copy can be attested to.

By definition (West's Encyclopedia of American Law, edition 2. Copyright 2008) the attestation of a copy is "[t]he certification by a custodian of records that a copy of an original document is a true copy that is demonstrated by his or her signature on a certificate." Florida provides a unique notarial certificate to be affixed to the copy.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/17/09 8:19am
Msg #296215

FOR A CERTIFIED COPY in Florida:

FOR A CERTIFIED COPY:
STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF ________

On this _____day of _____, 20___, I attest that the preceding or attached document is a true, exact, complete, and unaltered photocopy made by me of (description of document) presented to me by the document's custodian, ______________________________, and, to the best of my knowledge, that the photocopied document is neither a public record nor a publicly recordable document, certified copies of which are available from an official source other than a notary public.


(NOTARY SEAL) (Official Notary Signature)
(Name of Notary Typed, Printed, or Stamped)

Reply by PAW on 7/17/09 8:33am
Msg #296217

Picky point: FL notaries can ATTEST but not CERTIFY

Per the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries, in the glossary of terms:

CERTIFIED COPY
A copy of a document or record, signed and certified as a true copy by the public official who has
custody of the original record. NOTE: A notary may make an “attested photocopy,” but not a
certified copy. A certified copy is not the same as an original document.


Since I am not licensed to practice law in Florida, the following is my personal opinion:

From reading different law dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. the term "certified copy" is used in the definition of "attested copy". West's Law Encyclopedia defines the term "attest"as "To solemnly declare verbally or in writing that a particular document or testimony about an event is a true and accurate representation of the facts; to bear witness to. To formally certify by a signature that the signer has been present at the execution of a particular writing so as to rebut any potential challenges to its authenticity." Webster's New World Law Dictionary defines "certified copy" as "A copy of a document to which a statement, usually by the person who issued or is keeping the original, affirming or swearing that the copy and the original have been compared and that the copy is an exact reproduction of the original. Also called attested copy or verified copy."

Sorry for hijacking this thread for a diatribe on semantics.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/17/09 8:49am
Msg #296218

No picky - I have already noticed that difference when

RobertFL started posting and tossing about FL Law rules. Glad for your opinion/view/explanation. It's interesting.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/17/09 10:12am
Msg #296230

Re: Picky point: FL notaries can ATTEST but not CERTIFY

In CO we Notaries may make a ‘Certified Copy’ of some documents. We must have a written request for the certified copy. The written request must include the two statements shown (CSR 12-55-120 (1) a) and b) and must be signed by the client. Further the notary must make sure the copies are “complete, full, true, and exact facsimiles.”

We ‘certify’ the clients copy using the certification form found in the statute. A notary must always add this notarization themselves since it is the only notarial certificate that cannot be preprinted and must have all the blanks filled in accurately.
(see below)

CSR 12-55-120-1 a b
State of , County (or City) of , I, (name of notary) , a Notary Public in and for said state, do certify that on (date) , I carefully compared with the original the attached facsimile of (type of document) and the facsimile I now hold in my possession. They are complete, full, true, and exact facsimiles of the document they purport to reproduce.
(official signature, official seal, and commission expiration date of notary) ."

I guess my question is WHY would we want to do this given the fees involved, and the potential liability?

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/17/09 8:31am
Msg #296216

Similar for Texas, Paul, except as most know (8>)

Texans can not certify a copy of the passport, DL, etc. HOWEVER, we could indeed notarize a statement of a signer who stated that the passport, DL, etc. was a true and correct copy.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 7/17/09 10:29am
Msg #296233

Connecticut is similar to Texas. We notarize statement. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/17/09 2:48pm
Msg #296278

Could do this in Oregon, and as in FL, have to observe or personally make copy of ID (DL or Passport because official copies are not possible). Cert reads: "I certify that this is a true and correct copy of a document in the possession of _____________." And, I suppose we could sign a letter referencing the personal examination/comparison of likeness and signature.

My thought is that we can't ever totally and 100% be sure that IDs aren't faked - we do the best we can. I suppose if a group of men pulled up in big black Hummers, dressed in their ethnic garb, sporting US Passports and Oregon DLs, I just might have a sudden emergency in another county, and decline the offer to certify copies of their IDs for a Canadian company...

In certifying a copy of an ID, I am not certifying or attesting to anything about the ID itself, only that the copy of the document is a true and correct copy. If I follow our state laws in performing that notarial act, I fail to see why our Notary E & O would not still be in effect. And if the Canadian company came back on me because (it turns out the IDs were fake,) I would think my E & O carrier would defend me because I did not certify/attest that the IDs were not fake, only that the copy was true and correct. My letter stating that the signature/likeness were "true likenesses", on the other hand, might not qualify within that scope of notarial acts. I'm not sure I'd sign that letter, since I'm no handwriting expert, nor am I an expert at discerning a 'photoshopped' pictures of people.

In deference to PAW's excellent analysis of terms 'certify/attest', Oregon uses the terms as interchangeable, to wit: "A notary public may also certify or attest to a copy of a document..."

I'm just so unclear what this super-duper certifying/ attesting accomplishes, other than it's really, truly, honest to goodness, a copy of something.

Reply by Les_CO on 7/17/09 8:46pm
Msg #296312

You may be right about the E&O insurance.... but when I sign something swearing that it is a complete, full, true, and exact facsimile of the document they purport to reproduce…and if that document (passport or the driver license) turns out to be a fake…and that I scrutinized the original (fake) document, and found the signature, and the likeness to be the same as the person that I’m notarizing the document for….What s the point? I think the court and the insurance company would say that If I’m doing this as a business, and holding myself up as a professional, and that someone is ‘relying’ on what I am certifying, or attesting to as gospel, that I had better damn well know the genuine article from a fake. My point was why would anyone do this knowing the possible ramifications for $5?
By the way I too agree with Paul…I think what we really do here in CO is “attest.” However I took the wording directly out of the Colorado Revised Statutes, and the Colorado Notary Handbook…And they call it “Certify”…..who am I to argue?