Posted by Robert/FL on 7/12/09 9:37pm
Msg #295616

American Assoc. of Notaries

I just joined the American Association of Notaries, as the dues are so much cheaper than other organizations. But I'm finding that they have misinformation printed in a LOT of places. There are several newsletters they have issued that say a notary can not notarize a document that doesn't have a pre-printed notarial certificate, and that notaries are not allowed to hand-write or type a notarial certificate on a document that doesn't have one.

They also state in a lot of places that notaries can not certify copies of drivers licenses, passports, and social security cards, because they say these are public records? Even though my Florida notary handbook even specifically lists these items as documents that CAN be certified by a notary. I don't know of any county clerk that would allow you to record a copy of a passport or driver license, let alone a social security card! The AAN suggests that you write to the Department of State to get a certified copy of a passport! No such thing exists to my knowledge, although the DOS can provide you with a copy of your passport *application*.

Are there any other members of the AAN that have noticed this?

Reply by Michelle/AL on 7/12/09 9:50pm
Msg #295621

Yes. I have noticed some inconsistencies in

the information they provide. I just chalk it up to them referring to states other than AL. I am also a member of ASN and will need to decide if I'm going to renew next month. Their last newsletter informed me of Alabama SB 90 (URPERA - Electronic Recording). Several months ago when I placed calls to the county clerk's offices in AL no one knew anything about this. I followed up with my State Representative's office last week and learned that not only was the Bill before the Senate, it was voted on....and it passed!

Reply by PAW on 7/13/09 7:41am
Msg #295631

NNA-no way, AAN-not again, ASN=solid and reliable

I have been and will continue to be an ASN (American Society of Notaries - http://www.asnnotary.org) member. Their dues are very reasonable, but more importantly, their information is top-drawer. They stay up on current legislative and judicial actions in all states and provide that information directly to their membership. Two thumps-up for ASN.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 9:21am
Msg #295635

Re: NNA-no way, AAN-not again, ASN=solid and reliable

"Two thumps-up for ASN"

Is that Thumper on his back thumping? LOL (sorry, couldn't resist)

Reply by MW/VA on 7/13/09 7:53pm
Msg #295743

Re: NNA-no way, AAN-not again, ASN=solid and reliable

I agree. I've found the ASN to be the most reliable for info. & state updates.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/12/09 11:13pm
Msg #295625

"There are several newsletters they have issued that say a notary can not notarize a document that doesn't have a pre-printed notarial certificate, and that notaries are not allowed to hand-write or type a notarial certificate on a document that doesn't have one."

You'd be surprised at the number of people who believe that to be true. In fact, I recently had an online conversation elsewhere about this very topic with a person who has posted here and is a TEACHER of CA notaries. I'm sorry to use her as an example... but it's the first thing I thought of because it bothered me so much.

While I agreed with her, in theory, that any notary not having a loose cert on them is ill prepared... I wholly disagreed with the majority of what she presented. In fact, she said that CA notaries are required by law to carry loose certs. Specifically she said regarding loose certs or jurat stamps, "You are required by CA notary law to carry one or the other. CA law requires you have one of them available."

This comes from a TEACHER and it is 100% false. CA law requires no such thing. It only requires that a notary use specific wording. It does not dictate to form or format required for such wording. TO give her the benefit of the doubt though, I asked her to point out where this law was. She's a teacher so she should know, right? Her response was, "This is what we teach at XXXXXXXXXXX and every page is approved by our CA Sec of State office or we wouldn't be an approved vendor."

Funny thing is... that's NOT what their official study guide says...the one that is approved by the state. It says, "Effective 2008, this wording is the proper verbiage for a Jurat and if not pre-printed on the form, you will need to write it in or use a jurat stamp on the form."

Now that *is* correct.

But one of their own teachers is saying the opposite. It's no wonder there are a bunch of ill-informed notaries out there.

There is NO HARM in writing a notarial certificate out by hand. It may not be ideal...but it isn't wrong... at least according to CA law, which as we all know is pretty darn picky about these things. The law states that specific words must be used, not the manner in which they are printed. There is no legal difference between a pre-printed block, a stamped block or a handwritten block. Note I said "legal" difference... besides, with pre-printed docs, we're usually writing in information by hand anyway... so what's the big deal?

In fact, there may be cases when a handwritten block on the original document is preferred and more secure than a pre-printed loose certificate.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/13/09 7:03am
Msg #295628

We encounter misinformation from the NNA, as well. That's why it's important to know your state's notary laws inside out, and not rely on 2nd hand info.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 8:39am
Msg #295633

*I don't know of any county clerk that would allow you to record a copy of a passport or driver license, let alone a social security card! *

I'm going with the State Bar of Texas on this one. The State Bar of Texas offers this on one of their webpages:

Recordable documents are documents that are or may be recorded with a governmental agency or entity or are otherwise available from certain official entities.

Examples of recordable documents the notaries may not certify are: car titles, birth and death certificates, deeds, deeds of trust, marriage licenses, divorce decrees, driver’s licenses, wills, documents filed with the Secretary of State, military identification cards and records, passports, social security cards, visas, naturalization certificates or other identification cards and documents issued by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Certified copies of these types of documents and records must be obtained from the proper governmental agency or entity and notaries must not certify copies of any of these types of documents. As well, notaries may not certify copies of college transcripts issued in the United States since certified copies of these documents may be obtained from the issuing school.

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 11:36am
Msg #295651

Well since it appears that AAN is based in Texas, it makes sense why they would state that drivers licenses, passports, and social security cards can not be certified by a notary. However, that regulation obviously does not apply in all states, because the Florida handbook lists those items as specific documents which *CAN* be certified by a notary.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 11:57am
Msg #295653

You are correct, Robert. It should be made

clear in every article that every notary should do their own due dilligence and not appear that the article is an authority for ALL states. I think the previous writers perhaps assumed that notaries would figure that out because these writers (if they are who I think) aren't used to reading these types of forums and realizing how notaries discuss/learn...don't necessarily understand the process that notaries think through to learn...and how we DON'T want inc

Also, I think the writer of some of the articles you take issue with was a person very established in the Tx sos. Not sure, but I think I know who it was and YES from her perspective her remarks are accurate.

To be clear, I have written for the AAN recently and will in the future

But knowing I'm not THE authority on everything means my articles come with disclaimers that notaries must do their own due dilligence. hire legal counsel or call their sos.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 11:57am
Msg #295654

Re: You are correct, Robert. It should be made

finishing this thought: >>and how we DON'T want incorrect information anywhere. <<

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 12:25pm
Msg #295661

I'm going to take issue Brenda & Robert

All this nitpicking could have been avoided IF people could read and comprehend correctly. If the article states: "They also state in a LOT of places that notaries can not certify copies of" then I read that to mean there are exceptions.

"A lot" is not "all" or "everyplace", etc. which leads me to believe that I should examine my own state's laws, therefore, the author is correct.

What page are we going to examine next Robert? What issue are we going to try and shortcut tomorrow? What new name or position will you have tomorrow that will proceed to heap distain on those notaries who choose another avenue to sell their business model? What other new method are you going to attempt to bring about more typing practice for those of us who already know how to type but would like to debunk your sophomoronic (not a misspelling, a new word for the lexicon) rants?

Please, find a towel to apply behind your ears....

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 12:35pm
Msg #295663

Re: I'm going to take issue Brenda & Robert

I just have to say this...in recent experiences I have learned that those who "do" stuff in their corner of the world get
(1) a lot of criticism about what the non-do-ers think should have been done;
(2) suggestions about what else should be done; and
(3) criticism that too much is being done.

(To wit, my HOA experience and the simple task of lawn watering! Everyone who watches others work has vast input but little interest in doing the work...non-do-ers become experts on everything others do. You can't please everyone all of the time so you turn a deaf ear and keep on keepin' on. Those who WILL do, and those who won't do everything they can to feel smarter by criticizing the efforts of the sweating. Don't criticize the worker bees 'til you've walked a mile in their shoes...and stop being the batty malcontent who goes behind the worker turning off the faucets. OMG...it's so frustrating to the grounds man. )

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 1:38pm
Msg #295684

Okay - Forget I posted that.

I'm completely losing my mind. It seemed to make sense at the time. I need to call it a day.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/13/09 1:30pm
Msg #295682

Re: I'm going to take issue Brenda & Robert

I would think that most notaries would be intelligent enough to realize that they should know their own laws and know that blanket notary practice advice on a nationwide level can only be generic at best.

Sadly... we all know that there are plenty of notaries who don't posses that ability.... and others who simply ignore their own laws in favor of their opinions.

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 1:39pm
Msg #295685

Re: I'm going to take issue Brenda & Robert

My point of starting this thread was not to try and find a loop hole in my state notary laws. I know my laws. I also understand basic notary principles, something many people on this board seem to miss.

I was drawing attention to the fact that AAN was publishing incorrect information - and yes, they claim that it is an across the board prohibition for notaries to certify copies of passports, in all states. This is, quite simply, incorrect. It may be true in Texas, but it is definitely not true in Florida. As mentioned above, there are additional inconsistencies in the AAN's published information. They claim that a notary should refuse to notarize if the document doesn't have a pre-printed certificate, even if the client instructs the notary to hand-write an acknowledgment or jurat. This, again, is incorrect, in all states.

As usual, I am mercilessly attacked for every post. It's almost as if you are scanning my posts to find something to criticize, rather than contributing useful discussion to the topic.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 2:15pm
Msg #295700

Robert

Without direct quotes, it is useless. The source must be quoted to have accuracy attributed; what if, as my mind interpolates, they are saying that you, as a notary, cannot decide whether an acknowledgment or jurat is the way to go, therefore, again, this is a correct statement. But without the source quote, too much is left to interpretation, which now could enter one into UPL.

Quotes are very important. Most of us, when dealing with issues, attempt to back up our assertions with them for this very reason.

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 3:20pm
Msg #295710

Re: Robert

To clear up confusion, here are the DIRECT QUOTES from the website:

______________________________________________
Q: Can I type a notarial certificate on a document that does not contain one so that I can notarize it?
A: No. The document presented to the notary for a notarization must already contain a notarial certificate. Most states impose statutory requirements for certain instruments to be valid. A notary may be accused of practicing law without a license when the notary adds a notarial certificate on a document that did not include one. If a notary adds a notarial certificate on a document and such certificate causes the document to be invalid, the person may sue and recover damages from the notary. When a notary public is presented with a document that does not include a notarial certificate, the notary must refuse to notarize.

______________________________________________
Q: Can I notarize US and foreign passport copies?
A: No. A notary public may not certify to a copy of a U.S. passport. A U.S. passport is issued by the U. S. State Department, and only the custodian of records for the U.S. State Department in Washington D.C. can certify to a copy of such identification document. In addition, a notary public may not under any circumstances certify to a copy of a passport that has been issued by a foreign government.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 5:14pm
Msg #295724

WHICH Website?

did you never write a paper in college or high school citing reference, bibliography? did you never read a paper, book or mag. article that didn't cite their reference by saying the name of the source, author, page number, etc?

This is still totally unclear.

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 5:17pm
Msg #295726

Re: WHICH Website?

IT'S FROM THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF NOTARIES.

Please read the post before you start criticizing. It's from the "QUESTION & ANSWER CENTER". Only members have access.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 5:35pm
Msg #295729

I am not a member

A lot of us are not members I would venture to say, therefore, access is denied.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 5:36pm
Msg #295730

And, which issue would I look for anyway? n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 5:44pm
Msg #295731

Re: I am not a member

I don't see why it is relevant exactly where the info came from. The point is, it's posted on the AAN website, which means that the AAN is feeding their members false information.

Sorry - but I thought a notary message board would be a good place to mention this. My stupidity.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/13/09 4:04pm
Msg #295718

Robert: from the governor's manual for notaries:

<<<Even though my Florida notary handbook even specifically lists these items as documents that CAN be certified by a notary.>>>
I think you are again, mistaken.
Check page 15 and 19 of the governor's manual.
Specifically says we cannot notararize:


"The following documents are examples of public records, copies of which cannot be attested to by a notary:

Birth certificate

Marriage certificate

Death certificate

Certificate of citizenship or naturalization

Documents filed in a court proceeding

Documents recorded by the Clerk of the Court

Public records maintained in government offices

Student records (transcripts, etc.) kept in public education offices

Federal or state income tax forms, already filed

Professional licenses issued by the State of Florida

Any document for which photocopying is prohibited

This is not a complete list of public records. If the document is issued by a
government entity, the notary should contact that entity to determine whether a
certified copy is available. If one is available, then the notary public must decline
to make an attested photocopy. Additionally, the notary should ask the person if the document has been filed in a court proceeding or in the official records at the courthouse.
The following documents can be photocopied from the original (if not officially filed or recorded) and attested to by a notary, because certified copies cannot be obtained from another public official:


Florida driver's license

Florida vehicle title

Social Security card

Diploma

Medical record

U.S. passport

Bill of sale

Contract

Lease

Resident alien card

Personal letter "

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/13/09 4:24pm
Msg #295720

Re: Robert: from the governor's manual for notaries:

Exactly. Please read the bottom section:

____________________________________
The following documents can be photocopied from the original (if not officially filed or recorded) and attested to by a notary, because certified copies cannot be obtained from another public official:


Florida driver's license

Florida vehicle title

Social Security card

Diploma

Medical record

U.S. passport

Bill of sale

Contract

Lease

Resident alien card

Personal letter "
__________________________________

Thank you for inadvertently proving my point.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/13/09 5:17pm
Msg #295725

Re: Robert: from the governor's manual for notaries:

Only the 2nd paragraph of your original post today. The first is still correct from original post.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/13/09 6:09pm
Msg #295733

Re: American Assoc. of Notaries....I'm wondering

how the AAN is going to feel seeing their organization and publications aired out here...

May have been more prudent to contact them privately regarding the discrepancies...

But that's just me...

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 6:39pm
Msg #295734

Re: American Assoc. of Notaries....I'm wondering

They'll be okay...they got free press from it. I know for a fact that the AAN strives to seek writers and resources which are credible and worthwhile reading for notaries. They also do not charge a million dollars for their supplies or memberships. One year - $19.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/13/09 6:46pm
Msg #295735

Re: American Assoc. of Notaries....I'm wondering

how much good is free press if it's negative press? I wouldn't think they'd appreciate negative press at all...

I'll stick with ASN - least I know they're reliable.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/13/09 7:18pm
Msg #295737

Re: American Assoc. of Notaries....one thing about it, L

If anyone read this thread they (should have) learned that no notary publication can say every specific thing that is required in order to teach them to study their notary rules for themselves.

There are those who have been "out there" working as a notary and those who write theoretically about being a notary. Practical solutions do not come to mind if someone doesn't have field experience working as notary professional. The other thing is if someone wrote strictly from the government code in Texas and not from the notary education materials I am almost positive that they would not run into info which stated that the notary could provide sample certificates. Just my thought on that.

Reply by CH2inCA on 7/13/09 9:30pm
Msg #295756

Re: American Assoc. of Notaries....one thing about it, L

AAN put out a 'publication', and as such, is probably well prepared to handle what comes from their information. Regardless, if the AAN is aware of this thread it will grow from it; by either retracting, correcting, or just 'doing better' next time around.

Sadly, it's the Notaries on this thread who's credibility has suffered most from what comes across as silly bickering....

Just my not so humble opionon... which of course matters mostly to me.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/14/09 5:30am
Msg #295767

ch2inca:

*Regardless, if the AAN is aware of this thread it will grow from it; by either retracting, correcting, or just 'doing better' next time around. *

My thoughts exactly.