Posted by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 7:58am
Msg #295099

Beginner Notary Question

I have a question that someone asked me, and i thought i would post it here to get feedback. When notarizing a mortgage, does the person signing have to sign the mortgage in front of the notary? In other words, does the notary have to actually see the person sign the document? Please help.

Reply by Patricia Manatt on 7/9/09 8:05am
Msg #295100

You are notarizing that the person(s) personally appeared......key word PERSONALLY appeared so yes they must sign in front of the notary. Tell them to read their notary handbook and don't do any signings until they know exactly what they are to do.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 8:13am
Msg #295106

what state are you in?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 7/9/09 1:18pm
Msg #295185

It's an acknowldegment

Unless your state law says otherwise, they don't have to sign it in front of you, but they do have to appear before you to acknowledge that they signed it.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/9/09 8:05am
Msg #295101

Well geez Paul. What do YOU think? Look on page 1, paragraph 1 of your State's notary handbook to find the answer. UNBELIEVABLE! You should think about a career as a comedian instead of a notary public.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 8:11am
Msg #295103

Well......mwm143 - thanks for the advice. but you really did not answer the question......does that mean that you dont know the answer.....I am just curious. And the pst does say, "Beginner Question" - I know what MY handbook says, I am trying to find out what the notary policy is for other states.....can you help me?

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 8:13am
Msg #295105

By the way, how long have you been doing signings? and what state are you in?

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/09 8:20am
Msg #295109

@ Paul Higdon

When you post this information is revealed:
"Posted by Paul Higdon of KY on 7/9/09 8:13am "

Check that info to see what state people are in.

In answer to your question:

The person has to either sign in front of you or appear and acknowledgment that they signed.

You need to check your notary rules for more specifics.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/09 8:22am
Msg #295110

Re: @ Paul Higdon - btw, is this a notary test question? n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/09 9:18am
Msg #295125

Re: @ Paul Higdon

Someone needs to revoke my posting privileges...too many typos...


MEANT TO SAY:
The person has to either sign in front of you or appear and acknowledge that they signed.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/9/09 10:59am
Msg #295145

To B: you are hereby revoked of something...

better?

Reply by Patricia Manatt on 7/9/09 8:19am
Msg #295108

ANY document that requires notarization REQUIRES that the person(s) signing be IN FRONT of the notary. Read what the document says:

"On this the _____ day of ______, 2009 BEFORE ME, _________________________, the undersigned officer, PERSONALLY appeared ____________________________________
known to me (or satisfactorily proven) to be the person(s) whose name(s) are subscribed to the within instrument and acknowledged that he/she/they executed the same for the purposes therein contained.

In witness whereof, I hereunto set my hand and offical seal."



I don't see any room for question here

Reply by PAW on 7/9/09 1:05pm
Msg #295181

I'm sure there is a consensus of opinion, even by 'newbies' that the presence requirement is fundamental. However, the original question was whether or not the signer has to physically sign the document in the presence of the notary. The answer, for an acknowledgment, is "no". The signer need only acknowledge that the signature is theirs. The acknowledgment must be given in person to the notary. (There may be exceptions depending on statutes, rules, policies and procedures in a given set of circumstance.)

Reply by Liz/OR on 7/9/09 8:22am
Msg #295111

It is okay if the person states, "This is my signature". This was how we handled already signed documents we had to notarize when I was in the military. If it makes you happy, you can have them sign it again.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/09 8:24am
Msg #295114

Re: Beginner Notary Question - as long as it is an ack

and not a jurat, that's perfectly fine...by Tx rules.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 8:31am
Msg #295115

Well I was a notary in another state years ago.....and i went a signing with an "experienced" signing agent. and this person INSISTED that the borrower MUST sign the documents. I hav spoken to SEVERAL notaries and they said the same thing, that is why i posted the question. And as Patrica and NWN31 stated that the laws are very clear. But i think that MOST notaries DONT KNOW that a borrower can bring you a signed document, and state that " I signed this document" and in this situation, it would be finefor you to notarize the document - in MOST states.

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/9/09 9:01am
Msg #295120

@Paul - if you'll look under the library tab, you'll find links to all states. You never specified what state you were inquiring about. You should be able to find what you are looking for if you do a little research of your own.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 9:11am
Msg #295121

Again, I know the answer for my state and most states....I was trying to see if experienced notaries knew the answer.....and as you can see by some of the posts that some "seasoned" notaries dont even know notary guidlines 101. I am just getting into the "mortgage document" signing industry. And i am bewildered that alot of notaries - that claim to Premier, Seasoned and Certified - dont know this.

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/9/09 9:17am
Msg #295123

Paul - as stated before, you never specified which state you were inquiring about. Even though most states have the same rules, not all do. By not stating the state you were inquiring of makes it impossible for anyone to answer your question properly.

If it's a document that needs to be notarized, the signer is required to sign in front of the notary. If it's an ack, as long as the signer states that he/she signed the document to the notary, a re-sign is not necessary. Those are the rules in Missouri.

So Paul, as has been asked a few times already, which state are you in?

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 9:20am
Msg #295126

My state is KY - but again......i was tring to find out other states......i said that i was trying to find out other state policies.

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/9/09 9:23am
Msg #295129

notta problem Paul. But please remember that the Library tab has links to all states so any time you'd like to find information on other states, you can do the research yourself.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 9:31am
Msg #295133

thanks mo!

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/9/09 9:22am
Msg #295127

Re: Beginner Notary Question - rules in Texas are same.

Jurat - administer oath and signer signs before notary.
Ack - signer appears and either signs or acknowledges they signed before the notary.

Reply by Paul Higdon on 7/9/09 9:31am
Msg #295132

Re: Beginner Notary Question - rules in Texas are same.

thanks Brenda

Reply by Regal/NC on 7/9/09 9:18am
Msg #295124

Jurat vers Acknowledgement

As noted by BrendaTX:

Jurat vs. Acknowledgements - Which One??
A notary should not decide what type of notarial act a document requires. The customer must know and tell the notary. However, if the jurat indicates that the document was "sworn to before me," then an oath must be administered.
Jurats
Jurat notarizations are required for transactions where the signer must attest to the content of the document, such as all affidavits and pleadings in court. It is a certification on an affidavit declaring when, where and before whom it was sworn. In executing a jurat, a notary guarantees that the signer personally appeared before the notary, was given an oath or affirmation by the notary attesting to the truthfulness of the document, and signed the document in the notary's presence. It is always important that the notary positively identify a signer for a jurat, as s/he is certifying that the signer attested to the truthfulness of the document contents under penalty of perjury. However, jurat notarizations do not prove a document is true, legal, valid or enforceable.

Acknowledgements
Unlike a jurat (which requires a sworn oath), an acknowledgment is to merely confirm the identity of the document signer and acknowledge that they signed the document. If the document was signed outside the notary’s presence, the document signer must make a personal appearance before the notary to confirm it is their signature prior to the document being notarized. Again, there is no exception to the requirement of a personal appearance before the notary.
The acknowledgment notarization is not part of the document, and it does not affect its validity. Typically, they are executed on deeds and other documents that will be publicly recorded by a county official.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/9/09 12:51pm
Msg #295174

Is your name Robert and just moved from FL? n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/9/09 11:43pm
Msg #295255

Sorry, but for some reason, I'm not buyin' all that...

Besides, why would you care about other states? And how do you know who is "seasoned" and who isn't if you're a beginner? (But I've often recommended other newbies to take the time to find out and be careful who you listen to.)

I will heartily agree that "Premier" and "Certified" don't mean squat, except that someone ponied up some money to some organization or other. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. I've been a Premier member here for several years and will continue to be. Certified? With NNA? Not for a very long time - and probably never again!

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/09 10:28am
Msg #295137

IMO there are two issues involved in your question--notary law & notary protocol. In the loan signing part of our profession we are hired to provide a service. There is the state laws & there is also the lender's requirements. We take the docs to the borrower, verify identification, & witness the signing. There are usually both Acknowledgements & Jurats in the loan package. As an example, if a borrower had already signed a "mail away" package & then called me to notarize the signatures, I wouldn't do that. IMO there's too much risk of fraud to notarize a signature I haven't witnessed. Acting as an NSA is more involved than being "just a notary". My .02

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/9/09 10:50am
Msg #295143

MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

"As an example, if a borrower had already signed a "mail away" package & then called me to notarize the signatures, I wouldn't do that. IMO there's too much risk of fraud to notarize a signature I haven't witnessed." Acting as an NSA is more involved than being "just a notary". My .02

Read your handbook definititions. There is nothing that states that an acknowledgment needs to be signed in front of you, this is YOUR interpretation. In fact, it states the opposite, which is pretty common to acknowledgments taken anywhere. As long as the person signing the document acknowledges to you that they did sign it,and that it is their signature, and you check their ID and signature against the document, and it all makes sense, how can you refuse to notarize? Don't you think you are doing a disservice to the people of your state, because of your paranoia?

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/09 10:56am
Msg #295144

Re: MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

I respect your opinion. It's not paranoia--it's my policy. I'm referring to loan docs here, not other documents.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/9/09 11:02am
Msg #295148

Re: MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

What's the difference? As a notary public, (and a loan signer) all documents are just that, documents. very curious, why you feel it is so different.

Reply by Robert/FL on 7/9/09 12:24pm
Msg #295162

Re: MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

Sounds like the usual "I'm a signing agent, I know everything" double standard to me.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/09 12:32pm
Msg #295166

Re: MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

IMO that was a cheap & inappropriate remark.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/9/09 12:30pm
Msg #295164

Re: MW/VA wow, you take it to the extreme!

I'm not interested in a fight about this. I stated an opinion. If you decide to take exception to what I've said & take issue to acknowledgements specifically, so be it. Loan packages contain both acknowledgements & jurats. There is no notarization on many docs, i.e., TIL--that doesn't mean I don't have the responsibility to have it executed properly. I am a Notary Public & serve the public.
I am also in business & have liability for the business I conduct.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/9/09 11:34pm
Msg #295253

The root of the word "Acknowledgment" is "to acknowledge". If someone came to me with a "mail away" package, I would have no problem notarizing it, if their ID matched the name on the document, the signatures looked reasonably the same and if they formally acknowledged to me that they signed the document. That means that I literally ask them if they are the person who signed the document, or if the signature was, in fact, theirs, or something to that affect. I would be sure to get their thumbprint in my journal, though, whether or not my state required it.

Under my state's laws, that is proper completion of an acknowledgment. On the other hand, if the borrower had also already signed a jurat in that package, I would have them sign it again so that I could see it done, and we'd be good to go. Simple as that. I don't understand your concern, either. Are the VA laws different on this point?

Reply by nolanotary on 7/9/09 12:41pm
Msg #295168

In Louisiana, borrower(s) MUST sign in the presence of Notary AND 2 Witnesses. Therefore, Notary must see borrowers and witnesses sign.