Posted by mwm143 on 7/2/09 9:42am
Msg #294365

Loan Mod Co. and fraud

Let's continue this subject under a new topic.

If you take an assignment from a Loan Mod company that you know is under investigation for fraud by some government agency, or you otherwise are aware is potentially shady and you complete the assignment have you not now very possibly committed a fraudlent act? People conducting business with licenses, commissions, degrees, etc are held to a higher standard of the law. "Should have known" laws start applying.

The obvious answer is to never take the assignment. It's difficult to turn the other cheek when you know some unsuspecting family is probably going to get scammed.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/2/09 10:03am
Msg #294367

I guess innocent till proven guilty,

doesn't mean much to you. Also if you don't won't to work with/for someone you feel is not above board, then don't. But to take a job then sabotage those who hired you,speaks poorly of you and your business. That is unless you are trying out for the part of Greatest American Hero, but that show got canceled 30 years ago.

Your quest to rid the country of what you perceive to be dirty doer's is I believe going to come back and bite you. Good luck tilting at those windmills.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 10:11am
Msg #294369

Different topic...please read before responding

I started this new topic not to discuss the previous topic.

Can a notary be guilty of fraudulent activity if they conduct a transaction for a fraudulent company??

Reply by Philip Johnson on 7/2/09 10:22am
Msg #294372

Again you know their fraudlent how?

You have opinions from state Attorney's Generals? You have court cases where they have been found guilty of something? Or you just read somewhere that they are not up and up? It will be interesting to see where this vendetta takes you, especially when some company catches you running down their business and you end up in court.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 10:33am
Msg #294376

Scenerio...found to be fraud AFTER you conduct

the assignment.

First, Phillip, I stated in the other post and to a PM to the moderator that I was taking their advice. So enough about me.

This is just food for thought and discussion. If a customer gets scammed and files a lawsuit against the loan mod company, does anyone think that the notary who conducted the assignment could possibly be held liable in anyway?

Reply by Shoshana Roller on 7/2/09 10:04am
Msg #294368

I see you are not listening to the sage advice others have

given you.
If you are not an attorney specializing in this, you cannot determine what is a fraudulent act and what isn't. So far, all I have heard is rumors that this particular company is under investigation. I have not seen any proof.
I don't believe that it's up to us to make any determination or assumption that a particular client is going to get scammed.
If you don't want to work for the company, don't. Everybody hjas the right to make their own choice.
By the way, I do not do any signings for this particular company.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 10:16am
Msg #294371

Thanks

for responding to the subject. In real estate, for instance, a licensed agent can be held reponsible for not discovering a material defect that they "should have known" about.

Just last week in the National Notary Newsletter there was an article about fraudulent loan modification companies. So as a member of the NNA I should know about this.

And yes, yes, yes....I know I have the right to turn down the assignment.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 7/2/09 12:20pm
Msg #294391

Quoting the NNA is not going ot help you much here...

The NNA doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation around here. In fact, some people here will probably just assume you're an idiot for admitting to membership.

Don't get me wrong, I have a membership myself... providing by somebody as a favor some time ago and for which I had no issue accepting. Am I going to renew it on my own? Probably not.

The NNA's newsletter are often full of fluff that don't actually apply to the field.

Don't get me wrong, though... I don't think they're entirely messed up. They are fighting a serious bill in CA that would force CA notaries to accept a form of ID that is notoriously fraudulent. The NNA is the only organization actively trying to fight this, and for that I'm thankful.

Reply by Rachel_NJ on 7/2/09 10:27am
Msg #294374

Your post is ridiculous. No where in my notary handbook does it say I am also a cape crusader. My job...witness a signature. Are you new? Where were you when people were signing those docs for subprime loans which put them in the predicament they are in? When you saw their paperwork did you call them and tell them to do some online research and give you a call back? My guess is no. I don't worry about what other people do. That's not my business. As long as I am able to notarize legally then that's all I care about because that is my job. My job is not to give advice; not to make sure the borrower's got the best deal, just notarize signatures. I greet them with a warm hello, go through the paperwork, any questions I can answer I will be happy to do so, otherwise I forward them to their LO. After I am done I make small talk while I am collecting my things wish them a good day/night and that's it. My role as their notary is over once I leave the door. You need to reread your handbook because somewhere along the line you have mistaken yourself as an attorney. Frankly, what you are doing is breaking the law. One of those borrowers you kindly helped will call that company up and say you told them to rethink it over and do their research. When that company finds out what you did you will realize the phrase "No act of kindness goes unpunished".
Good luck on that quest.
P.S. if you could swing by my neighbor's that'd be great, his kitten is stuck in the tree again.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 10:36am
Msg #294378

You're commenting to a different post Rachel n/m

Reply by Rachel_NJ on 7/2/09 10:40am
Msg #294380

Glad you read it anyway! n/m

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 10:42am
Msg #294382

Re: Glad you read it anyway!

That's the difference Rachel. I actually read and understand the topic before I respond. Keeps things on track that way.

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/2/09 10:42am
Msg #294381

The thing with these Loan Mod. APPLICATIONS is that you're not notarizing a single thing. And (at least one of these co's) instructs you to say you're their Cust. Svc. Rep. I just don't take these as their 'customers' are my neighbors and I do want to sleep well.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/2/09 12:24pm
Msg #294392

I am concerned enough NOT to accept a loan mod application

assignment, particularly , if I am instructed to pick up a check
or credit card info.
If the customers ends up with a bad result, (either actual or percieved) I believe that, if they decide to sue , then they might well sue eveyone in sight, including the poor dummy who
showed up at their door.
The question of actual liability of culpbility is incidental. I don't need the hassle.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/2/09 12:42pm
Msg #294393

If you had done a little research, using the orange search button, you would have realized that the supposed loan mods from the particular co. you were citing has been discussed a lot.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 7/2/09 12:52pm
Msg #294394

The thing about lawsuits

is that anyone remotely connected is dragged in. Since this company tells the borrower that you are their rep and you leave with their checks and personal information you are something of a conduit. This company has beend determined by the State of WI as offering services illegally. The company has ignored certified letters and phone calls from the Dept of finance informing them of this and the states offer to assist them in licensing themselves and the laws of WI pertaining to loan modification/foreclosure consutant activities.
I did one and decided never again. It's not worth the potential liability working for an inductry that the BBB gives an automatic F to.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 1:06pm
Msg #294398

Re: The thing about lawsuits

At the risk of getting my hand slapped without first using the orange search button, does anyone know of a government website that lists companies in question relating to our industry and in which states they are being investigated?

Reply by JAM/CA on 7/2/09 2:13pm
Msg #294407

Re: The thing about lawsuits

I never allow a company to say that I am one of their reps. I call the individuals and make it quite clear exactly what my job is and that I have no financial or beneficial interest. I am an independent contractor.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 1:03pm
Msg #294396

Once again, in sticking with THIS particular topic I have not referenced any specific loan mod company and I am speaking generally of any and all of them. Don't you think this is a worthwhile topic worthy of more discussion?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/09 1:21pm
Msg #294399

You need to check your particular state regulations

as to loan modification requirements...does your state allow up-front fees? Does your state require certain agreements to be signed prior to payment of those up front fees?

Here in FL it is illegal for a company to take up front fees for an application - all fees are paid when the actual modification is signed and/or recorded...I, therefore, will not do them UNLESS it is to specifically get the paperwork signed only - I will not pick up checks for the applications.

If your state does regulate this activity, you need to research that yourself. After research, if you feel you're being asked to do something contrary to your state's laws, then it's your decision to take the assignment or not - with full acceptance of any and all consequences of your decision.

I do recall there is one poster here who is being sued as a result of having a loan modification signed....the orange search button will reveal that info.


MHO

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 1:29pm
Msg #294400

Well then.....enough said!

"I do recall there is one poster here who is being sued as a result of having a loan modification signed....the orange search button will reveal that info."

I suppose a document that the notary themselves can draft for signature by the customer advising that they are in no way employed or otherwise associated with the company, contract person only, and have no knowledge of the transaction, etc. etc. etc. could be helpful.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/2/09 1:31pm
Msg #294401

Re: Well then.....enough said! well....

that person that's being sued also happens to be an attorney....

As you said - "enough said!!"...

Reply by Riley/FL on 7/2/09 3:51pm
Msg #294425

NOTARY DISCLOSURE STATEMENT AND HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT

I have this form that I ASK the BOs to sign. I can't recall where I got it, but I took out the 'hold harmless 'part because to me it was too repititious and I think the BO's may balk at that part. It could probably be reworded for loan applications. Anyway, here it is.

NOTARY SIGNING AGENT DISCLOSURE STATEMENT

Please be advised that I, ___________, as Notary Public/Signing Agent, do not represent the borrower, purchaser, seller, the lender or the title company.
The role of the Notary Public/Signing Agent is to facilitate the signing of your loan, purchase or sale closing papers, witness you signing (including notarizing those documents that require notarization) and return the loan, purchase or sale closing papers to either the lender or the title company.
The Notary Public/Signing Agent is not a legal representative of, or for either the borrower, purchaser, seller, the lender or the title company and therefore cannot and will not render any legal advice or give any opinion of the loan or its terms during the course of the loan signing. The Notary Public/Signing Agent has no knowledge of, and is not responsible for the funding or closing of the loan, or compliance with the Patriot Act. The Notary Public/Signing Agent is not a loan closing agent, settlement agent, loan officer, escrow officer, title officer, or the like, for this lender, or any company.
If any questions arise during the signing of your loan closing papers, please contact your lender immediately. Personal and/or professional opinions about this loan or transaction will not be given. I am a Notary Public, bound by the laws of the State of Florida. I will neither encourage, nor discourage any person from signing any document, nor will I give any person any advice, declaration, opinion or direction regarding any document.



I have received a copy of the preceding disclosure.

__________________ __________________
Signature Signature

__________________ __________________
Date Date

Reply by MW/VA on 7/2/09 7:53pm
Msg #294470

Re: NOTARY DISCLOSURE STATEMENT AND HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT

That might cover work as an NSA, but wouldn't apply to the situation where the loan mod co. is having you act as their rep (sales agent, really) & there is no notary work involved. As per previous discussions, I decline those kind of transactions. The only loan mod work I'm interested in is the one's coming from the lender.

Reply by Riley/FL on 7/2/09 8:00pm
Msg #294471

Re: NOTARY DISCLOSURE STATEMENT AND HOLD HARMLESS AGREEMENT

I've done a few I've gotten from Brokers, but never any money involved. Even if it wasn't illegal here in FL, I wouldn't do it.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/2/09 4:32pm
Msg #294431

Re: Well then.....enough said!

** I suppose a document that the notary themselves can draft for signature by the customer advising that they are in no way employed or otherwise associated with the company, contract person only, and have no knowledge of the transaction, etc. etc. etc. could be helpful. **

Do as you wish but I know this much, a majority of businesses and people who get sued have had the Plaintiff sign a hold harmless and indemnity agreement.

It will not keep you out of a lawsuit.

It's only a piece of paper; it will likely be useless if you write it yourself or download it off the internet.

It simply gives proof that you figured something could go awry, expected to be sued, and you'd be an easy target so you got the document signed.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 5:14pm
Msg #294440

Re: Well then.....enough said!

Good point.

Reply by CaliNotary on 7/2/09 4:36pm
Msg #294433

How do you not already know

that the contents of a document are not the notary's concern? Our responsibility begins and ends at properly identifying the person.

If we could be held legally liable for the contents of the documents, who in their right mind would ever become a notary at all? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Reply by mwm143 on 7/2/09 5:13pm
Msg #294439

Re: How do you not already know

Well of course we know that. That's Notary 101.

This is somewhat different. First you're not notarizing anything (at least from my understanding). Second by collecting all the documentation required you're assisting in facilitating the transaction. I've never been asked to collect original bank statements, credit card info, hardship letters, the whole kit and kaboodle during a loan closing. During a RESPA signing, yes. But there's no cost or obligation to the customer. Regardless, if one notary posting here is facing a lawsuit then you can bet there are more out there and more to come.