Posted by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 4:43pm
Msg #295849

Whose documents are they? Long.

Recently because of the shortened time span between receiving a signing assignment and the appointment time for signing itself the pressures on the NSA to print and review documents has increased dramatically. I have reluctantly accepted the fact that the days of receiving documents by FedEx and the resulting one or two days between the delivery of the documents and the signing appointment are probably gone forever.

That does not explain the latest phenomena - the borrower asking for the NSA to email them a complete copy of the documents to review before confirming an appointment. As I see it, the borrower has been so far out of the loop once the initial application process has been completed that in spite of receiving a GFE and perhaps some other documents the borrower feels that they don't know how the documents will actually read, and the comfort level (and trust?) between themselves and the Broker or Loan Officer has evaporated.

I understand that the loan process can not only be "foreign" to the borrower but compounding that is the reality that many brokers do not work or reside in the area where the property and borrower actually are. This makes what used to be a face to face process into one of faceless internet and phone communications between strangers. Now some unknown person, the NSA holds all the papers and wants to have the borrower sign over a hundred pages of legalese designed to protect the lender from the borrower's actions.

I don't mind the printing and delivery process (assuming there is compensation to the NSA for that effort), but I do not feel that is should be the NSA's job to communicate the detailed contents of loan terms to the borrower in order to confirm an appointment.

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/14/09 5:04pm
Msg #295852

I have had borrower's want to see the Settlement Statement before they start signing the documents. This is pretty much the same to me as emailing them in advance. If they don't like what the Settlement Statement advises them, they either won't sign or exercise their RTC.

By emailing them in advance, it could be a savings of paper not printed on, time you've not spent printing and getting the docs ready plus the mileage, wear and tear on your vehicle. Then again, you won't get paid for printing and travel if it's a no-sign. Still, I'm in agreement with you - detailed contents should be received from their LO, not from the NSA.

Reply by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 5:25pm
Msg #295855

As I used to understand the process all the documents belong to the lender and title company, not to the borrower until the documents are signed and then the borrower gets one unsigned copy. More and more I'm seeing the borrower wanting to "look" at all the documents first, before signing anything, which turns the whole signing process into a disaster since on their own most borrowers won't understand the vast majority of the documents in the package anyway.

I try and get the important documents taken care of first (the note, the Deed of Trust, the TIL and TRC) but if the borrower is reading (?) through the entire loan package and then focusing on some unimportant document it messes up the whole signing process.

Reply by jba/fl on 7/14/09 6:20pm
Msg #295869

"important documents taken care of first "

Like the HUD? That is the most important to me - where is my money going, am I being charged $30 for flood report that should be $4-9; etc. Note next - the rest is inconsequential to me almost.

Reply by Alice/MD on 7/14/09 5:17pm
Msg #295853

DavidK/CA, your statement is so profound and deep-felt that nothing else can be said to identify , or describe my job as a NSA.

"I don't mind the printing and delivery process, but I do not feel that it should be the NSA's job to communicate the detailed contents of the loan terms to the borrower in order to confirm an appointment."

Thanks for your time to write this most informative, insightful post.

Reply by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 5:26pm
Msg #295856

Alice, it's good to know I'm not alone on this issue. n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 7/14/09 5:27pm
Msg #295857

If my LO does not talk to me when scheduling rolls

around, you better believe when the SA calls to confirm the signing appt. that I am going to ask a zillion questions to avoid wasted time, paper and trip. I know what I was told, I know what I am expecting, and I know what had better be on those docs if I have not had any prior discussion with the LO. And if I have had a discussion just prior, then I still know what is to be expected. Changes will cause me to balk big-time. Supposed to be this month - best not be on Sat or Sun - they are booked already and I'm not giving them up. Been 72 days now - I am not holding my breath...

Reply by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 5:43pm
Msg #295861

Re: If my LO does not talk to me when scheduling rolls

My issue is having the NSA email the docs to the borrower because the LO didn't earn his keep.

I don't mind telling the borrower the amount of the loan, the interest rate, the payment amount and the amount due or to be received upon closing, but I don't think the average borrower is going to effectively read through and understand 125 pages of documents that appear on their computer screen. And then I have to wait for them to contact me to set up an appointment. So far, not one of the borrowers who requested me to email them all the documents actually read all the documents anyway. They said they did, but based on the way the signings went if they did read everything they sure didn't understand or remember it.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/14/09 7:30pm
Msg #295886

curious

Why would you have a "signing agent" come to you? Perhaps it's just me but I have very little patience and I could not fathom sitting at my kitchen table with anyone attempting to tell me anything at all about my loan because I would know my numbers inside and out. Because you're in the business, you know "what's important" and "what's paper" and I'm guessing your actual signing time should be 10 minutes. I've always had them send me my paperwork and then ... gasp ... go to a "regular" notary with the docs requiring notarization.

When I bought properties the past few years, I told MY lawyer, not the settlement agent the lender wanted me to use, what my numbers were and if the package came through with something different to let me know.

I understand that "regular" borrowers often don't realize the "process" but since we do, again, I can't imagine sitting waiting for someone to possibly show up on time ... or not as we all know ... to tell me how to sign my name and ... again, gasp ... possibly ask me for a fingerprint or to sign a notary journal !!!!!

Reply by jba/fl on 7/14/09 7:57pm
Msg #295898

sent you a pm - oops, 2. ROFL at your scenario! n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/14/09 8:13pm
Msg #295903

Re: curious....Sue

Not all lenders like to send docs directly to borrowers...I know when I refi'd years ago with Provident I worked for the attorney who did the closing....they told me if I worked on the file (and I was the only one doing the real estate) they'd have to send it to another attorney .. after that they refused to even talk to me on the phone.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/14/09 5:43pm
Msg #295860

Loan docs are lender's property ...

title docs are title agent's property - clearly stated within the closing instructions (which is a contract). People who are obtaining a mortgage should/can ASK for an advance set of documents to review, PRIOR to closing. Typically, they do not unless they are using legal counsel - most RE lawyers know the ropes, and know to ask for a review set.

The whole idea that docs wouldn't be ready in time for an attorney's pkg ... well, the atty's don't accept that, and will simply then request the closing to be rescheduled until the day AFTER their review pkg has been sent to them. Consumers certainly could follow that same practice - but they usually don't.

The reason? They don't know what they're reading anyway, and they know it! That's one of the reason why IMHO it takes a "closer" and not "just a notary" to perform this service.
------------------------------
That said - none of this has anything to do with me, or what I do for a living. As for some "phenomenon" of borrowers wanting their pkgs reviewed prior to signing - never had anyone ask me, nor would I EVER do that. I can't identify ANYONE over the phone - they'd have to ask for & obtain their copy through their L.O, it's not coming through me. I'm not signing up to take on the risks of some wayward e-mail forward, or some unintended recipient.

Reply by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 5:52pm
Msg #295863

Response to renee

CA is not an attorney only state. The vast majority of residential refis and purchases are signed with the assistantance of an NSA, not an attorney. That means that it is possible for more or more signings to have a very small window between assignment to an NSA and the pre-established signing appointment time, often the same day, and rarely more than two days away.

When the SS or broker authorizes me to email the documents to the borrower I do so, but never solely on the request of the borrower.

Even still, identity theft is an issue of concern and I won't send the documents to an address that doesn't look Kosher to me.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 7/14/09 6:02pm
Msg #295866

back at you, David ..

I understand CA isn't an atty-only state, I was trying to make the point that consumers CAN ask, just like the atty's do. They can also INSIST, just like the atty's do, in the instances when someone hires an atty to help them with a purchase or a refi - regardless of state.

Just my opinion, too - but lenders use a lot of high-dollar technology to send docs securely to title, and title takes their OWN risk in however they send them to you. Once YOU decide to send them anywhere - you are now the one taking the risk.

People who don't do devious things don't THINK the same way that devious people do - I just hope you're considering all the potential for risk and liability you're signing up for, to accomodate someone you can't identify and in a way that you would be hard-pressed to ensure absolutely as safe. There's a whole lot of info in those docs, and if they get in the wrong hands - you feel pretty warm & fuzzy that the SS or broker is going to have your back?

Reply by janCA on 7/14/09 7:30pm
Msg #295885

Re: back at you, David ..

Renee, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wouldn't dare send docs to a borrower, not on your life. I had someone a couple of weeks ago ask me to send the HUD to him via email. He stated that if the figures weren't right, he wasn't going to sign so there would be no sense in me coming to his home. I got on the phone to the hiring entity and told them the borrower had requested "they" send it. I called the borrower to confirm that he had received it. He had, he was satisfied and he was ready to sign.

Reply by MW/VA on 7/14/09 7:40pm
Msg #295887

Re: back at you, David ..

I'm in complete agreement. I would never supply the borrower with an advance copy of any of the docs sent to me. I have had a few borrowers tell me they had received a copy of the docs via email prior to the signing. No issue as long as they didn't come from me. What gets me is that we're so rushed, getting doc pkgs. at last minute, and racing the keep an appt. I would never alter my schedule further by waiting for the borrower to decide if they were or were not going to proceed--Not on my dime!

Reply by PAW on 7/14/09 7:41pm
Msg #295889

Re: Response to David

>>> When the SS or broker authorizes me to email the documents to the borrower I do so, but never solely on the request of the borrower. <<<

I would never, ever send the documents to anyone based on a phone call. I don't care if the president of the mortgage company or title company said it was okay to do so. I won't take on any additional liability. If the lender or title company wants to send a copy to the borrower, so be it. Not my call. (This is the advice I received from an attorney.)

I won't even discuss any "figures" over the phone with anyone since, like Renee and others, I haven't a clue to whom I am speaking. I advise the borrowers, if they want advance information to contact their LO, broker or whoever they have been dealing with.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 7/14/09 11:28pm
Msg #295923

Agree 100% n/m

Reply by Ernest__CT on 7/14/09 8:24pm
Msg #295905

Forward docs to borrowers?r NFW!

As other people have said, never, ever would I take the responsibility of forwarding closing docs to anyone. Period.

There are so many reasons NOT to forward edocs that there is never a question in my mind.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/14/09 8:33pm
Msg #295906

Let the lender, broker or tc forward the docs

Let them who gain much take on much risk.

Reply by davidK/CA on 7/14/09 11:26pm
Msg #295922

I bow to those much smarter than I. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/16/09 2:07pm
Msg #296095

Just reading this thread... n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/16/09 2:16pm
Msg #296097

Ooops... (hit wrong key)

David, I've been seeing that much more often, myself. It seems that lots of those who have been refinancing lately are people who are either more savvy or have learned their lessons or have become paranoid by all the news about the lending industry. I'm with those who refer them back to their broker or LO to ask for a copy of their settlement statement in advance and to address any questions to them. And then, depending on the situation (and the vibe I get), I typically ask them to call me once everything is OK or if there are any problems.

I've also seen an increase in situations where I arrive at the signing and the BO already has a copy of the settlement statement to compare to the one I'm bringing. Both of those are situations I love to see. Not only does it save me time in the signing, but it's nice - on a purely personal level - to not have the feeling that I've associated in some way with some slimey players as in the "refi-mania" days, even as an independent party.

Reply by SharonMN on 7/15/09 10:44am
Msg #295971

If the borrower tells me they want to review docs before they sign, that's an indication that they are NOT ready for me and this is a cancelled appt. I would tell the borrower I will ask their lender to contact them, go over the documents, and schedule the appointment when they are ready to sign. Then I would call the hiring entity and explain that borrower is not ready to sign yet and that I would be happy to take the appointment when everyone is ready.

If I don't do this, I end up making endless phone calls trying to figure out if everyone is ready, and the appointment usually ends up not happening anyway.