Posted by Jessc098 on 7/9/09 6:52pm
Msg #295218

notary contracts with non-competes

Seriously? I got one of these today. How could I possibly agree to not compete? I don't know the SS's clients, I don't know if they work with the other SS's that I work for.

As someone who's worked as a lobbyist and thus frequently subject to non-competes I understand them well.

Further, the one I'm looking at today automatically renews indefinetly unless you reply in writing within 30 days of the expiration date. You've got to be kidding me.

Does anyone else sign these things?

Jessica

Reply by Lee/AR on 7/9/09 7:01pm
Msg #295219

They all read pretty much alike. Must pull 'em off the same website, huh? I'm guessing it's just become an expected thing---gotta have a contract to be a real business. Funny that TCs generally never want contracts. Oh, well---make 'em happy. Fill it out. Correct anything you don't like. Or not. Your call. Just another oddity of this biz.

Reply by Jessc098 on 7/9/09 7:05pm
Msg #295220

I've signed a few things but generally they're agreements that I'm an independent contractor and not an employee. I'll sign that no problem, but there's no way I'll sign a non-compete, especially one that automatically renews and includes essentially the entire globe. I may as well say "if our professional relationship ever dims, I hearby agree to change careers and become a mortician."

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/9/09 7:18pm
Msg #295223

As someone with first hand knowledge of a non-compete contract, I can honestly tell you that based upon discussions with an attorney, it will not hold up in court depending on it's wording. Companies have employees/contractors sign those thinking that the no-complete is a deterrent to not start/engage in the same business. It's simply a scare tactic. Does it work? Sure - for those who are afraid of getting sued for breach of contract.

Courts have ruled that they are in effect not allowing a person to obtain gainful employment - in that, it is against some law, somewhere.

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor am I giving any legal advice. I am stating pieces of conversations I've had with my own attorney. You should always seek your own legal advice.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 7/9/09 11:01pm
Msg #295244

I've also heard that - at least in my state - they also are not enforceable and I typically don't sign them. In some cases, I've provided alternative wording to the effect that I don't use contact information obtained from assignments for marketing purposes. But I couldn't tell you if I've ever received any work from those companies. I don't save tc contact info from ss clients, so it would be impossible for me to know if one of their clients happened to be a company that I've already worked with, or perhaps a company that I might market to (along with others), based on information from different sources.

Frankly, I don't sign very many of those agreements. My best clients have never asked me to sign anything.

Reply by KODI/CA on 7/9/09 9:36pm
Msg #295233

You might want to check your state laws. In California "non-competes" are against the law unless you depart a company as a partner, or an executive officer.

Reply by John_NorCal on 7/9/09 11:22pm
Msg #295249

I know of one that was enforced but it was for an employee who left the company (not a ss) and was soliciting the companies customers. The idiot was so brazen he was using some of the ex-employers equipment! Judgement against him was for $30,000, again this was an employee-employer relationship.

Reply by Shelly_FL on 7/9/09 9:37pm
Msg #295234

I have signed a few of them and always note on the signature page that the agreement will be effective once I receive a copy of the agreement returned to me with their signature. I have yet to get a single agreement in return. Oh well

I guess it's not that important to them to make the effort to respond. I wonder if they actually look at it!

Reply by Jessc098 on 7/9/09 11:30pm
Msg #295250

Agreed. While I'm not an attorney and can't give legal advice, I was a Lobbyist, for which one doesn't have to be an attorney.... and I was intimately familiar with non-competes, and well-read on the laws about them here in WA. I've also been party to them in many circumstances--for instance, I'm not allowed to work in the exec offices of a demolition company for another three years within 50 miles of here. I'm totally willing to abide by that rule--as I was intimately familiar with the details of the company that I worked in. It wouldn't be ethical to take that knowledge to a direct competitor. In a few years, that will be outdated.

As for a notary contract to work with ONE of my many clients, forget it. I just won't sign. If they need me to sign it, I don't need to work for them. No way. I just can't believe they send such brazen contracts out to everyone and expect them to come back signed. Ha!!

I hope others will consider their rights and obligations and also say "no thanks" to these SS's that think that's acceptable behavior.

(That said, let's all play nice and remember that it isn't polite to steal customers away from our clients either).

Jess

Reply by Jessc098 on 7/9/09 11:31pm
Msg #295251

Agreed. While I'm not an attorney and can't give legal advice, I was a Lobbyist, for which one doesn't have to be an attorney.... and I was intimately familiar with non-competes, and well-read on the laws about them here in WA. I've also been party to them in many circumstances--for instance, I'm not allowed to work in the exec offices of a demolition company for another three years within 50 miles of here. I'm totally willing to abide by that rule--as I was intimately familiar with the details of the company that I worked in. It wouldn't be ethical to take that knowledge to a direct competitor. In a few years, that will be outdated.

As for a notary contract to work with ONE of my many clients, forget it. I just won't sign. If they need me to sign it, I don't need to work for them. No way. I just can't believe they send such brazen contracts out to everyone and expect them to come back signed. Ha!!

I hope others will consider their rights and obligations and also say "no thanks" to these SS's that think that's acceptable behavior.

(That said, let's all play nice and remember that it isn't polite to steal customers away from our clients either).

Jess

Reply by Jessc098 on 7/9/09 11:31pm
Msg #295252

Agreed. While I'm not an attorney and can't give legal advice, I was a Lobbyist, for which one doesn't have to be an attorney.... and I was intimately familiar with non-competes, and well-read on the laws about them here in WA. I've also been party to them in many circumstances--for instance, I'm not allowed to work in the exec offices of a demolition company for another three years within 50 miles of here. I'm totally willing to abide by that rule--as I was intimately familiar with the details of the company that I worked in. It wouldn't be ethical to take that knowledge to a direct competitor. In a few years, that will be outdated.

As for a notary contract to work with ONE of my many clients, forget it. I just won't sign. If they need me to sign it, I don't need to work for them. No way. I just can't believe they send such brazen contracts out to everyone and expect them to come back signed. Ha!!

I hope others will consider their rights and obligations and also say "no thanks" to these SS's that think that's acceptable behavior.

(That said, let's all play nice and remember that it isn't polite to steal customers away from our clients either).

Jess

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 7/10/09 12:12am
Msg #295256

from what I understand, in the case of a typical ...

non-comp from a SS, these things should be written on VERY soft
paper for all the the use that they will be to the SS/
Not legal advise yada yada.

Reply by Hugh Nations Signing Agents of Austin on 7/10/09 1:26am
Msg #295260

Non-competes generally are enforceable. The key word is "reasonableness."

Non-competes must be reasonable as to their aim, the geographic area involved, and the duration. Generally, if it fails to meet the reasonableness test in any of those areas, the entire agreement falls -- or at least that was black-letter law 30 years ago, when I was practicing. I doubt that it has changed much.

Reply by Jessc098 on 7/10/09 1:41am
Msg #295261

Bob--I love your take on this.

I'm not spending my $$ on a lawyer after the fact if I'm ever challenged. I'll just choose my clients carefully at the outset, and presume that if I'm good to them, they'll return the favor. That's how I like to do business.

I don't like starting any business relationship with a two page document that essentially says "If you do X,Y,Z I'll sue you into oblivion." I want to send my clients Christmas cards, not legal forms.

That's just not how I roll. :-)

Still cracking up though... "very soft paper.... " mind if I borrow that sometime?

Reply by notaryinmo on 7/10/09 12:01pm
Msg #295313

I agree with you Hugh. The key is to "reasonableness" as you've stated.

Missouri courts have ruled (in at least two cases) that in a certain profession, having a non-compete contract is tantamount to the defendant not being able to obtain gainful employment and could have a detrimental effect on their way of life. Essentially, not being able work or be associated with any company performing the task(s) within a 25 mile radius and within a two year time frame would render the defendant unemployable.

Reply by sue_pa on 7/10/09 7:08am
Msg #295269

several years ago I did a lot of work for a certain title company. I was one of the few direct notaries they used ... they went through one signing service for most of the orders. There was A LOT of work coming out of this company (I did about 30 orders a month for them) so it was significant money. I don't remember how the conversation came up about hiring direct but the one lady told me they wouldn't use a notary directlty who had previously worked for them through the signing service because the signing service sent them copies of the contract with the noncompete and she said it wasn't worth one bit of hassle for them to get in the middle of it.

So .... enforceable or not, as with every other aspect of our jobs, the title companies and lenders want their docs signed and returned with the least amount of hassle ... and they aren't going to be involved in what may or may not ever become an issue ... at least this one company wasn't.

Also, am I the only one ever concerned with the "hold harmless" clause in these? Seems to me that should be more of an issue than a noncompete.

Reply by rengel/CA on 7/10/09 9:46am
Msg #295288

Nope, I won't sign them. I have a business that I run. I will not sign anything that will take business away from me. If I sign something saying that I won't work for one company's competition, I don't make money.

I would perhaps sign one saying that I won't become a signing service, but that's about it.

My .02

Reply by A S Johnson on 7/10/09 9:59am
Msg #295290

The big reason I won't sign these is I don't want the headache and possible $$$ to have an att'y answer any filing.
My experience was 30 yrs ago. I was a regional mgr for Sara Coverntry (a MLM party plan slling coustom jewelry, a NJ co they file on me when I left them with my group (I recurited) and went to a new start up like co out of OKC. It cost me about $2000 att'y fees to be represented in the NJ court and ended up with a $50,000 judgement. I was able to block enforcement in AR (where I live then) by contesting the comfirmation of out of state judgement in the JP court they had to use to enforce it. It was on my credit report for years.