Posted by MikeC/NY on 6/20/09 6:02pm
Msg #293018
About thos fax backs...
I was at a real estate closing yesterday (as an RE agent, not as a notary), and after everything was signed the attorney had to call the funding desk at Wells Fargo for authorization to disburse funds. I'm sitting across from him and watching his eyes grow wide as he starts to furiously scribble on his pad. When he hangs up, he tells us that he's never heard of this before, but the bank wants about 40 pages faxed back - mortgage, deed, note, TIL, HUD, name affidavits, 4506, 1003, etc - PLUS additional copies of the buyers' financial info, all to be reviewed before they would authorize disbursements. He already had the funds wired to him, and the checks were written; he just wasn't allowed to do anything with them.
We sat there and waited 2 hours for authorization. I wasn't going anywhere, because one of those checks he was sitting on was my commission check...
This may be the wave of the future; as our LO told me, the banks' new motto is "run like a snail". They are triple-checking everything, then coming back to check again. Day of closing, they may request proof of borrower's continued employment - it's that bad.
The point is, rather than complain about the need for faxbacks, accept them as a given and price your services accordingly. Either ask up front so you can adjust your fee, or factor them into your fee from the get go. There is NO reason you should ever be surprised after accepting an assignment by a request to fax back the entire package - if you are, shame on you.
And just for chuckles - the attorney was complaining about how he was always so organized and kept the packages in a certain order, but now that they were asking him to pull documents out and fax them back, the package was all jumbled. He said they like to get the package back in a certain stacking order, but now "they're lucky they're getting it back at all - let them sort it out." Boy, that sure sounded familiar...
| Reply by jba/fl on 6/20/09 6:56pm
Msg #293020
"but now "they're lucky they're getting it back at all - let them sort it out.""
My laugh of the day = thanks for sharing. How true.
| Reply by davidK/CA on 6/20/09 7:38pm
Msg #293023
Re: About thos fax backs...and sloppy work by TC and Lender
Ask me to pick documents out of the entire loan package and fax them and I will (within limits if it was agreed to beforehand) but then those documents go on the top of the pile. I'm not going to split the package into many parts and then reassemble them in a certain order. Now if they want to pay an additional fee for me to do so then maybe I'll reconsider, but for "free"?No way.
IMHO we already do way to much stuff as it is to cover for the sloppy work by title company and lender employees that I see so many times lately. And the new stupid forms they have added along with the many duplicates that are in the package to satisfy some attorney's ego drive me bonkers. How many millions of trees are wasted every day just to keep up with the latest version of someone's dream of what they think is required, not what is actually needed.
No I'm not practicing law, but there is no way that three copies of a form that says you have to have insurance on the property makes any sense. The same goes for duplicate ID forms, isn't one enough? Does anyone think the BO will change his/her ID during the signing, or magically become someone else? How many years will it take for some lenders to get it that three copies of the RTC per borrower is all that is needed, or even more stupidly they include just two copies so that the NSA has to stop and print one more to make a total of three. Of course my all time favorite is failing to include the mandatory California Jurat language, and instead force the NSA to have to attach a separate California Jurat to comply with California Law.
| Reply by Stamper_WI on 6/20/09 7:51pm
Msg #293025
Re: About thos fax backs...and sloppy work by TC and Lender
I don't try to figure the order out. I put the fax backs on top with a post it that says "fax backs"
I figure its a great hint and they charge enough "closing costs' that their hourly wage earners, who probably could order them in their sleep, do it.
| Reply by JanelWI on 6/23/09 8:29am
Msg #293175
Amen, David! n/m
| Reply by DonR_NYC on 6/20/09 7:43pm
Msg #293024
To add to Mike's post (since we're both RE agents) a lot of banks are also ordering a second appraisal on a property before closing or changing the downpayment requirements in mid stream. My RE office had a closing recently that went bad, why? Because at the closing table of a Co-Op purchase the bank felt that a 20% DP was not enough and wanted the purchaser to add an additional 20%. Needless to say the purchaser refused and the deal died.
This lender will now only fund a 60% mortgage for this Co-Op complex so a 40% DP is REQUIRED.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/21/09 10:33am
Msg #293054
"Because at the closing table of a Co-Op purchase the bank felt that a 20% DP was not enough and wanted the purchaser to add an additional 20%."
Average price for a co-op out here is in the $150K-$200K range. Who's going to come up with an extra $30K-$40K at the table??? On top of that, I'm hearing that some co-op boards are requiring the buyer to have liquid assets covering 2 years of mortgage payments and maintenance fees.
| Reply by PAW on 6/20/09 8:19pm
Msg #293029
Sending (faxing) funding docs at closing to the lender is a very common practice. Every lender that I worked with while at the title company required certain docs to be signed, notarized if necessary and faxed to them before they would allow us to disburse funds.
So what you ran in to is very common from the purchase side at a title company. Especially in table funding states where the proceeds are disbursed at the table immediately (or sooner) after closing.
As for putting them back in a particular stacking order, unless the request comes from the title closer, they go back the way I present them. If funding faxes were required, they go on top with a note and paper clip stating "funding docs". The title closer and warehouser is going to pull the package apart anyway. If a lender wants a specific stacking order, let the title company do it.
| Reply by John Schenk on 6/20/09 11:25pm
Msg #293048
Yah, that's what I do. Clip'em together...fax'em..and I'm done. Faxed docs simply go on top of the packet when I ship them back.
As far as I'm concerned my duty to keep the docs in order ends when they want a massive faxback. Everything will be in order, that remains after the pages a jerked out to fax back. What I fax is paperclipped together, and IN ORDER of the request. That's it, unless they want to get hit really hard for me to keep that package in the original order.
If they want to pay the money, anything is possible.
JJ
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/21/09 10:35am
Msg #293055
"Sending (faxing) funding docs at closing to the lender is a very common practice. Every lender that I worked with while at the title company required certain docs to be signed, notarized if necessary and faxed to them before they would allow us to disburse funds."
Certain documents, yes - not the bulk of the package, plus additional financial information from the borrower (which the bank already had). Waiting 2 hours for an approval at the table is definitely not common.
| Reply by PAW on 6/21/09 7:14pm
Msg #293069
You would be surprised. Especially at month end. I've had to fax more than 50 pages sometimes, often including documents like the 1003, a "signed by the homeowner" insurance rider or policy (ALL pages had to be initialed and faxed to the lender). And very often waited more than 2 hours for approval. All too often having to call the lender multiple times to get them to review the documents.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/22/09 1:24pm
Msg #293113
I can't speak for how things are done in the other 49.5 states, because real estate is done differently in this corner of NY (I say 49.5 states, because that includes the rest of NY). What I've described has not been the norm HERE, and especially not the request for a re-send of buyers financial info at the closing table. The fact that an experienced real estate attorney with hundreds of closing under his belt was surprised by the request (his words were something to the effect that "In all my years of doing this, I have never been asked for that many documents at the table" pretty much confirms that. That's not to say it won't start being like that here, only that it's not the norm now.
A 3 hour closing is also not the norm HERE, unless there are title issues or other surprises. This one was clean - signing was completed in under an hour. Funding issues can sometimes result in a dry closing, but in this case the funds had already been wired to the bank's attorney and the HUD had been approved. What would normally happen HERE is that some - not all - documents are faxed for review and a funding number supplied shortly thereafter. Two+ hours and all that paperwork is an exception.
It may be that since all parties are at the table together here - bank attorney, buyer w/attorney, seller w/attorney, and TC - the bank's attorney has a little more leeway than would apply in other situations. The bank's attorney runs the show and calls the shots. I don't know if it's done that way elsewhere, but I suspect it usually isn't.
| Reply by PAW on 6/22/09 2:34pm
Msg #293120
>>> I don't know if it's done that way elsewhere, but I suspect it usually isn't. <<<
Right about that, Mike. I've done a ton of purchase closings, and not one was done by a bank attorney. Every one has been done by either a title closer or title attorney. Most by the title closer, no matter who is in attendance. (Based on private, residential sales. Commercial sales are whole different ball game.)
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/22/09 3:49pm
Msg #293127
That may be part of the difference in the approach - here, the bank is represented at the table at a purchase closing, so their interests are being looked after. And I've sat in on closings where the bank's attorney has given both other attorneys AND the title closer a hard time. I'm guessing the bank's attorney has a certain level of authority, which is probably what surprised this guy - they wanted to review stuff he would normally review.
That's just in this part of the state, around NYC - and the rules may even be different in NYC proper, but I don't do real estate there. If you go north of the Hudson Valley, the process is different and a lot simpler.
This is for in-state properties; I've done out-of-state property purchase closings as an SA, and there were no lawyers at the table at all. In those, I only handled the buyer side and it was pretty much like a re-fi, just as Linda said in an earlier message.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/20/09 8:38pm
Msg #293030
My procedure for faxbacks...FWIW
On the rare occasion I have to do faxbacks, I photocopy those pages that need to be faxed - flip to the page, copy, put right back in place in the order they were....that way the company gets the docs back in order (to me especially important when they just want signature pages of note, mortgage, riders, etc) and I have a copy of the faxed pages to show compliance.
My way...
| Reply by Patricia/VT on 6/20/09 8:54pm
Msg #293032
Re: My procedure for faxbacks...FWIW
I simply stick a post-it flag with the number of pages pulled out to fax, on the succeding page, and then reinsert the pages after faxing. It only takes a minute or two.
| Reply by John Schenk on 6/20/09 11:20pm
Msg #293047
That's BS
It does NOT take a minute or two if they want 40 pages pulled out of a 150 page set of docs, fax those out, and then put those back in the same order. That's what it takes for the siggy page of the deed and to fax the hud and RTC.
JJ
| Reply by Antonio Faretta on 6/22/09 8:12pm
Msg #293146
Re: My procedure for faxbacks...FWIW
patricia,that is avery good idea
| Reply by John Schenk on 6/20/09 11:15pm
Msg #293046
Haven't read any other post but yours but I'll tell you what I do on massive faxbacks. I fax them back, and clip them together with the confirmation off my fax machine that THOSE docs were faxed back. I have NEVER tried to stick those docs back in order, and will not do it, period.
IF they want massive faxbacks, which they're going to have to pay for with me, they should group those together at the front of the edocs.
Let me back up...I WOULD put them back in order for another $50-$75. Usually it takes 15 minutes to a half hour just to pull those docs out. When you fax back that many there is usually SOME doc that they ask for that's not named what they are asking for, or it simply doesn't apply in your venue. You still gotta look for it, or you'll get docked. Now putting them back in order, that means you have to sticky and name every spot they're supposed to go back to in the pack. I can do that, for $50-$75, depending upon how many docs they want. My time is for sale. If they want something for free they can go onlive and have it sent to them.
I'll do it, but they have to pay me for it.
JJ
| Reply by sue_pa on 6/21/09 10:23am
Msg #293053
agree with Paul
Fax backs for a funding number are the norm here for a purchase. The lawyer did it wrong. I get the funding docs signed immediately with ZERO explanation other than we'll go over everything once the fax goes through. Then we start at the beginning with the closing. They are usually calling with the funding number by the time I am writing the checks. The later in the day and the later in the month, waiting for that number can take quite a while.
This is just one of the many reasons purchases require quite a bit of extra work, knowledge of the ENTIRE process, "skill", etc. To take a purchase assignment from (being picky here) a CA signing service that has NO knowledge of how the mechanics of it works is not an order I want ... been there, done that. I've always shuddered when I read on these boards that purchases are "easy", "the same as a refi", etc. Not in my state they're not ...
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/21/09 10:39am
Msg #293056
Re: agree with Paul...Sue
"I get the funding docs signed immediately with ZERO explanation other than we'll go over everything once the fax goes through. Then we start at the beginning with the closing. They are usually calling with the funding number by the time I am writing the checks"
Like you said - you're talking an entire different skill set here...most of us here aren't responsible for writing checks, etc...so getting purchase docs signed are no different than a refi - unless we're also doing the seller side so we have those extra docs to contend with - 95% of my purchases here have been in buyers' home, just like a refi...
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/21/09 10:53am
Msg #293058
Re: agree with Paul
The attorney wasn't doing it wrong, he was doing it the same way he's done hundreds of other closings over the past 5 or 10 years. Closing instructions did not list the funding docs required. He expected to send back SOME docs - not everything, and certainly not the borrower's financial information.
In this part of NY, in-state purchase closings are not done by notaries, they're done by attorneys. Any experienced real estate attorney here knows what's required and how it should be done, and it is definitely NOT the norm here to spend that much time at a closing.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 6/21/09 12:38pm
Msg #293061
Re: agree with Paul
<<<So what you ran in to is very common from the purchase side at a title company. Especially in table funding states where the proceeds are disbursed at the table immediately (or sooner) after closing.>>>
I found an interesting chart on Wet/Dry funding - in reference to the Wet Settlement Act, which has to do with table funding.
http://www.docmagic.com/media/docmagic/compliance/compliance07/wet-dry.pdf
| Reply by PAW on 6/21/09 7:29pm
Msg #293070
Re: agree with Paul
DocMagic did a pretty good job with this document. I know we (the title company that I worked with) had some 'issues' with their document when it first was published, concerning Florida. It still isn't exactly right, but the Notes section clearly defines what needs to be done here. Florida is a "table funding" state but we do have both wet and dry closings. Since there's no rules per se about closing requirements, as stated in the notes section, the closing can be completed in all respects except for the disbursement of funds, which is a "dry" closing. Most closings are "wet" in that funds are disbursed at the table, about 97% of the time, in my experience.
What frequently happened to make the closing a "dry" closing was the lack of a funding number or approval from the lender. More often than not, it was due to EOM when there's a big crunch to close the properties and especially on Fridays. Lenders didn't wait around on Friday nights to provide funding approval, so we did a lot of dry closings because of that.
But this is all for another thread. (Had no intention of hi-jacking this thread.)
| Reply by MW/VA on 6/22/09 8:48pm
Msg #293148
Re: agree with Paul
VA is a table funding state also. When we do a notary closing there is no immediate disbursement of funds. We do many out of state purchases and the RE Agents are very anxious for their money.
It doesn't fund until the paperwork is received back to the tc. Sometimes faxbacks are required, but not always.
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