Posted by Robert/FL on 6/11/09 8:29pm
Msg #292082

Acknoweldgment vs. Signature Guarantee

I've been thinking lately... the most common notarial act is, obviously, taking an acknowledgment. By its definition, it means that somebody personally appeared before you, and declared that they signed the document presented voluntarily. This makes sense for wills, powers of attorney, and deeds.

But it seems that notarization has instead become some sort of signature guarantee, i.e. we are certifying that the person signing the document is who they say they are. Guaranteeing that the signature is authentic is not, and should not be, the same as taking an acknowledgment. In my opinion, anyone could come in off the street and acknowledged that they set their hand to a certain document, and I shouldn't need to have identification presented for that purpose.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but none of the notaries I know would put this much thought into it. Just wanted to share my own two cents.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/11/09 8:47pm
Msg #292086

I just don't know what to say except ... oh my

... off the street and acknowledged that they set their hand to a certain document, and I shouldn't need to have identification presented for that purpose. ...

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/11/09 8:47pm
Msg #292087

Not in Texas. We are only verifying that someone

appeared before us and offered ID which we found satisfactory. Wait, a better way to say it....here's the blurb from our website:

"The primary duty of a Notary Public is to show that a disinterested party (the Notary Public) has duly notified the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, and the signer of such document has declared that the signer’s identity, signature, and reasons for signing such instrument are genuine. >>>>The signature and seal of a Notary Public do not prove these facts conclusively, but provide prima facie proof of them,<<<< and allow persons in trade and commerce to rely upon the truth and veracity of the Notary Public as a third party who has no personal interest in the transaction."

No matter how we try to apply more importance to it, that's it in a nutshell.

I feel that the teachings by notary signing agent classes/books, etc. have given the notary a sense that they are signature guarantors, as you perceive. Those of us who were notaries before we were "signing agents" have a different sense of the commission. Someone showed up, asked for service, provided ID, we record it and all that WE know is that they have said this is who they are. When you handle loan documents according to teachings of those who want you to believe that you are indeed the gatekeeper against all manner of fraud it gives a sense that your entire life is on the line. Yes, we should be vigilant against fraud, but that's not what a notary truly is....not in Texas anyhow. I'm glad we are only taking the statements of a person as an impartial witness, not guaranteeing they are, without a doubt, who they say they are.

Rotten tomatoes expected but I'm okay with that.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/11/09 9:09pm
Msg #292093

Re: Not in Texas. We are only verifying that someone

I agree with your definition of primary duty. However, I am arguing over the definition of "acknowledgment". An acknowledgment in and of itself is a statement that someone signed something voluntarily, not that they were authorized to sign something. By checking an ID, you are guaranteeing a signature; not an authorized duty of a notary. I'm not saying we shouldn't check ID, because obviously, the law requires us to. But in my eyes, there is no such thing as a "notarization". When someone wants something "notarized", it is usually as a precaution to make sure that the document is signed by an authorized person, and not to make someone acknowledge that they signed the document voluntarily, which is what an acknowledgment is.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 6/11/09 9:42pm
Msg #292094

You aren't guaranteeing a signature

You are witnessing the signature of a person who proved to you that he has the same legal name as the person named on the document.
We are to use reasonable reliance on personal knowledge of the signer, or valid ID as to identity.
We don't have to know for sure, we just have to be convinced based on evidence that they are who they say they are.
That helps reduce fraud-no, it doesn't stop it, but if people didn't have to have a legal impartial witness the acknowledgement.
An acknowledgement without an impartial witness is nothing more than a statement that could have been written/signed by anyone.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 6/11/09 9:47pm
Msg #292097

oops:

>>> but if people didn't have to have a legal impartial witness the acknowledgement.<<<

greedy and malicous people would rule. Think fraud's bad now? Imagine it without any
policing.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/11/09 9:46pm
Msg #292095

Re: Not in Texas. We are only verifying that someone

*ACKNOWLEDGMENT: A formal declaration before an authorized official, such as a notary public, by someone who signs a document and confirms that the signature is authentic. Also, the certificate of the officer on such instrument indicating that the document has been so acknowledged.*

Straight from the Texas manual. Nothing about authority to it.

For the sake of discussion I looked yours up. Florida's isn't much different.

If you want to talk "notary duties" then stick to the notary manual and definitions. Broadening this to include a definition in another context is not going to change the notary manual, or what the notary's duty is.

A notary's seal only verifies that someone appeared, presented adequate ID and I guess, by signing the document they have professed to have that "authority" to sign. You're not verifying that authority. Just that they professed it and said they are the person whose name is on the document.

You state, "...it is usually as a precaution to make sure that the document is signed by an authorized person , and not to make someone acknowledge that they signed the document voluntarily, which is what an acknowledgment is."

Usually? As a precaution? By an authorized person? The person appearing before the notary apparently thinks/professes they are authorized. We don't question that or police it. We take acknowledgments. It's not our job to question the public about their authority...just check the ID, etc. etc. If they aren't the person and have used fake ID which passed your test it's their crime, not yours. If you aren't comfortable with the routine or that the duties are such as they state in the law, maybe being a notary is not for you. I'm not going to assume additional responsibility or liability. I don't need no stinkin' badge.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/11/09 9:49pm
Msg #292098

Well said, Brenda... n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 6/11/09 9:51pm
Msg #292100

Robert, I don't know where you get your definitions...

I have checked my favorite source for definitions, Visual Thesaurus, and none of their many definitions, all as a noun, says "An acknowledgment in and of itself is a statement that someone signed something voluntarily" but "an acknowledgment of the truth of something" is listed.

Since FL acks. say one must cite their source of identification, ie, personal knowledge or presentation of an ID and it must be listed (driver's license, passport, etc.) as to type, it pretty much says you are comfortable with the identification being made and that you reasonably feel that the person signing/standing in front of you is indeed the person who has signed the document (truth). If they have already signed the document prior to presenting their ID, then checking the signature for match between the two documents is one way to help verify the truth.

It is great you have an inquiring mind, but sometimes we just need to accept that the law is what it is until we can change it. If I recollect correctly, you appear to challenge each segment of the process, almost as though you would rather shortcut the system in place. As for what the other notaries you know do, well, I know people who drink alcohol all day and all night, therefore, I should also? I know people who run red lights - should I also? Of course, my parents always said, "If your friends jump off a building....(or whatever the day brought to mindJ) are you going to also?"

Another issue: "When someone wants something "notarized", it is usually as a precaution to make sure that the document is signed by an authorized person,"

Reply by jba/fl on 6/11/09 10:12pm
Msg #292105

Re: Robert, I don't know where you get your definitions...

Sorry - didn't get to finish...one of FL's famous bugs flew past me and I freaked, thereby, double posting. Back to:

Another issue: "When someone wants something "notarized", it is usually as a precaution to make sure that the document is signed by an authorized person,"

Not "an" but "the" authorized person so named in the document or signing said document. It is pretty much well defined that there is a person, but it needs to be the person, as I am saying in my ack. that "the" person was in front of me, not "a" person. I am in effect saying that the proper person I ID'ed was the person in front of me. Also: "When taking an acknowledgment, make sure that the person is entering into the transaction of he or her own free will." (Governor's Refernce Manual for Notaries, State of Florida, p. 28) "Do you acknowledge that this is your signature and that you are executing this document of your own free will?" (ibid, p.12) "The basic role of a notary public in our legal system and in the world of commerce is to prevent fraud." (ibid, p. 30)

Now I'm done - bug is done for too!

Reply by jba/fl on 6/11/09 9:51pm
Msg #292101

Robert, I don't know where you get your definitions...

I have checked my favorite source for definitions, Visual Thesaurus, and none of their many definitions, all as a noun, says "An acknowledgment in and of itself is a statement that someone signed something voluntarily" but "an acknowledgment of the truth of something" is listed.

Since FL acks. say one must cite their source of identification, ie, personal knowledge or presentation of an ID and it must be listed (driver's license, passport, etc.) as to type, it pretty much says you are comfortable with the identification being made and that you reasonably feel that the person signing/standing in front of you is indeed the person who has signed the document (truth). If they have already signed the document prior to presenting their ID, then checking the signature for match between the two documents is one way to help verify the truth.

It is great you have an inquiring mind, but sometimes we just need to accept that the law is what it is until we can change it. If I recollect correctly, you appear to challenge each segment of the process, almost as though you would rather shortcut the system in place. As for what the other notaries you know do, well, I know people who drink alcohol all day and all night, therefore, I should also? I know people who run red lights - should I also? Of course, my parents always said, "If your friends jump off a building....(or whatever the day brought to mindJ) are you going to also?"

Another issue: "When someone wants something "notarized", it is usually as a precaution to make sure that the document is signed by an authorized person,"

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/11/09 9:58pm
Msg #292102

I'd love to stay up and see where this goes but...

I am going to bed.

Robert, what is the purpose of your original post? Don't mean to sound smart@ss and it does, but not the intent. Just curious.

Reply by Becca_FL on 6/11/09 10:09pm
Msg #292104

Oy Vey! And, an "expert" to boot. No wonder why I don't...

read this crap daily, as I used to. Recent posts just make me shake my head wondering how and why.

Do I really want to work in a profession where self proclaimed professionals ask such basic questions...where idiots seem to run rampant? ROBERT, get a grip and READ your manual. Don't make yourself look so foolish. Answerers are all around you.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/11/09 10:15pm
Msg #292106

For the record: "These is NO connection or similarity..

between Robert/FL and Bob_Chicago.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/11/09 10:22pm
Msg #292107

One could argue that backwards or forwards

you both might be Bob.

Reply by Becca_FL on 6/11/09 10:53pm
Msg #292112

Heheheheehhehehee n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/12/09 3:59am
Msg #292126

Not even the same!!

A signature guarantee is actually an institutionally issued guarantee by private institution. It essentially creates a private contract or guanrantee that a person's signature is authentic or that institution will cover the loss. However, there may or may not be anything to actually back up that guarantee.

A Notarization a public act, the process by which is established by state statute... often (though not always) backed up by a bond.

Signature guarantees can be refused by the receiving agent.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/12/09 6:48am
Msg #292131

Re: Not even the same!!

If all a notary did was serve as an "impartial witness", we could simply write "Subscribed before me on ___". The fact is, we are asked to take an acknowledgment. That means the person before you acknowledged something: that they signed the document voluntarily. People use notarization as a way to ensure that the document is being signed by the proper person, i.e. we are going by their ID. Anyone can check ID and witness something. But only a notary can take an official acknowledgment.

And before anymore of you "experts" jump down my throat, take note that this is a "NOTARY" forum and not a "SIGNING AGENT" forum. My questions are the types of questions that SHOULD be asked in a forum which is supposed to be about NOTARY procedures. Yet, everytime anyone asks a question, everyone goes ballistic, because they would much rather people just post about their random loan signing experiences, which, again, doesn't really have anything to do with being a notary.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/12/09 7:08am
Msg #292135

Re: Not even the same!!

And another thing- directly from Florida notary handbook:

==================

"Many incorrectly assume that they are just verifying identification and witnessing a signature. But, the act of notarization is much different ... To take an acknowledgment, the document signer must personally appear before you, the notary public, and declare that he or she has signed the document voluntarily. You should ensure that the signer understands the document and has not been coerced into signing."

==================

THAT is my argument. The definition of an acknowledgment is NOT verifying identification and witnessing a signature, but having the signer declare that they signed the document voluntarily.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 6/12/09 7:24am
Msg #292138

Re: Not even the same!!

<<<The definition of an acknowledgment is NOT verifying identification and witnessing a signature, but having the signer declare that they signed the document voluntarily.>>>

Who must appear before the impartial witness.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/12/09 8:37am
Msg #292146

Re: Not even the same!!

"The definition of an acknowledgment is NOT verifying identification and witnessing a signature, but having the signer declare that they signed the document voluntarily."

I am still wondering, where do you get your definition(s)? Source, please.

If you want to have an "argument", you really must produce a source or sources. Without that, I still maintain that you are wet behind the ears and do not have a source and are using your own made up definitions.

Again, you must see Page 12 of the Governor's Manual for Notaries, State of Florida, which I copied for you earlier and cited my source. You are being woefully redundant in not citing your source(s).

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/12/09 9:22am
Msg #292154

Re: Not even the same!!

As posted above, DIRECTLY FROM THE FLORIDA NOTARY HANDBOOK:

"Many incorrectly assume that they are just verifying identification and witnessing a signature. But, the act of notarization is much different."

"To take an acknowledgment, the document signer must personally appear before you, the notary public, and declare that he or she has signed the document voluntarily."

Reply by MW/VA on 6/12/09 8:28am
Msg #292145

Re: Not even the same!!

Yes, it may be true that this is a "NOTARY" forum and not a "SIGNING AGENT" forum.
Most of the discussion is from NSA's, because that's what many of us do & pay for a listing on the site. Discussions on Notary Law are difficult, because the laws vary by state.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/12/09 10:25am
Msg #292158

Re: Not even the same!!

*And before anymore of you "experts" jump down my throat, take note that this is a "NOTARY" forum and not a "SIGNING AGENT" forum.*

Robert, I hope that you do not think that I jumped down your throat.

I thought you really wanted an answer...that you were confused about the issue, because it is my humble and non-expert opinion that you are looking outside of the notary law to create an issue for yourself.

My notary experience is not about being a signing agent as much as other. I have had a legal asst. career as well. Sometimes being around lawyers day in/day out makes you see things differently.

But the notary law is written for people who are not working for lawyers, as well. Therefore, I believe it is stated exactly as it is intended to be read. No more. No less.