Posted by John Schenk on 6/3/09 10:52pm
Msg #291091

I Fingerprint Every Borrower/Signer in My Notary Journal

It's not required in Texas, but I bought a journal that has a place for it and I do it on each and every closing. Started doing that about a year ago. Don't want anyone ever coming back and claiming that the person wasn't present. IF that ever happens, I have a right thumb print to prove that person was the signer, in addition to the picture I.D.. Most of you may be doing that also. I use a circular ink pad that I actually have attached to my journal that I simply flip open and have them press their thumb on and put their imprint. At the point where that is affixed to the journal is a little lumpy, but I never have to go looking for it. I have mine affixed on the far left side where you write in the date and time of the act. Seems like the best place for me, IF you want to attach the ink pad to the journal. They come with a sticky thing on the back of them. If I had a cheap briefcase, I'd just attach it to that maybe.

Like I say, most of you may already do this. If not, the borrowers don't mind, and it is one way to TOTALLY document that the borrower was present when you notarized the document. It's MANDATORY in Cook County Illinois, and may be mandatory in other places..haven't researched that.

Just called covering your behind a little more.

JJ

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 6/3/09 11:30pm
Msg #291094

Thumprints are required for certain documents in CA; but I think you should fingerprint every signer!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/4/09 12:09am
Msg #291095

"MANDATORY in Cook County Illinois" ONLY in very limited ..

circumstances. Only for deeds involving a third party conveyance of residential property
located in Cook County Illinois and notarized in Illinois.
Also,for NSAs where thumb print is not required by your state's law,
you should not insist on thumb print if signer objects

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 6/4/09 12:32am
Msg #291098

Re: "MANDATORY in Cook County Illinois" ONLY in very limited ..

Ca notaries are subject to a $2,500 fine if we don't get a thumbprint for certain documents.

If for no other reason, the vast majority of CA notaries fingerprint every signer.

What type of signer refuses a thumbprint?

Fear of ink!

My thump might not come clean!

I'm a criminal (yep, that would make sense)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 6/4/09 12:47am
Msg #291101

As, I said, Joan, when reqd by your sate's law, then

go for it.
However, when not so required, you can subject yourself to a world of hurt if you refuse a
notarization because signer refuses to give a fingerprint

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 6/4/09 12:50am
Msg #291102

Re: As, I said, Joan, when reqd by your state's law, then

How many signers have you had that refused a thumbprint?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/4/09 3:27am
Msg #291103

Re: As, I said, Joan, when reqd by your state's law, then

It's happened to me once in nine years and that person was from another country. Maybe he had reason back there to not want to give a thumbprint, but it was for a doc that didn't require it, so I just let it go. Most people here anymore expect to get thumbprinted. Just part of the routine, so I don't even get into whether or not it's required, I just routinely thumbprint everyone.

Reply by Kay/IL on 6/4/09 8:46am
Msg #291117

Re: As, I said, Joan, when reqd by your state's law, then

In Illinois, thumbprints and journals are required only in very specific instances when doing a signing. Only purchases/sales of residential properties in Cook County, Illinois require prepartion of a certain certificate, which said certificate requires a thumbprint. Further, this requirement only took place this week (June 1, 2009) and there are still many exceptions to this rule.

Simply put, journal and thumbprint requirements are very new in Illinois and only required in very limited instances.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/4/09 6:12am
Msg #291107

Agree with you Bob.

As conclusive as evidence of a fingerprint is there is no hint in Texas law that the same should be taken.

In fact, the Texas notary is only required to keep an accurate journal of notarial acts, not to have the journal signed. That requirement was removed years ago.

Therefore, while it might be a "good" idea to go an extra mile or two, the law doesn't require it and a notary certainly cannot push the issue on either the journal signature or the fingerprint.

I request my journal to be signed, but they can refuse. (But they generally don't know that. ) The fingerprint, though, I see a lot of push back on that one. Texas values privacy. That's why we can't require a signature or a Texas DL # in our journal. A thumbprint might cause a meltdown with the right signer.

Reply by John Schenk on 6/4/09 9:12am
Msg #291120

Re: Agree with you Bob.

I've never had a hint of refusal to sign my book or give me a thumbprint. However, if/when that happens, regarding either, I know I can't force the issue, and wouldn't. Signing the journal, and taking a thumb print, is the last thing that gets done before I leave the signing table so I'm not really worried about a meltdown. If they melt down, they're gonna do most of that while I'm not around to see it. LOL As for ME, I'm going to keep having them sign my book and give me a thumb print. If I ever have one refuse, then I guess I will have one without a signature and/or a thumbprint. No big deal. :-)

JJ

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/4/09 10:52am
Msg #291129

Re: Agree with you Bob. John...re "meltdown"

LOL...not worried about the borrowers not signing, but that the "paranoid" walk among us. I don't want to disturb them by asking for a thumbprint which is not required. Leaving sleeping dogs to lie.

Texans felt strongly enough about protecting their "signature" from the notaries' journals so that the journal signing requirement was removed.

I heard the "Judicial Committee" of the legislature explain this...in open session...in person at the state capitol a few years ago...that's how I know *why* it happened. Lawmakers understood and came through with laws to protect that privacy.

Perhaps it is from this experience that I wouldn't push my luck with a thumbprint, although others feel differently.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/4/09 10:58am
Msg #291130

btw - John, I like the idea of attaching the pad to the

journal for efficiency's sake.

Reply by sue_pa on 6/4/09 7:39am
Msg #291108

Re: "MANDATORY in Cook County Illinois" ONLY in very limited ..

...What type of signer refuses a thumbprint? ...

I'm guessing a lot of signers when it's not required/routine in your area for any reason. I personally would never be fingerprinted (unless I've got handcuffs on and an orange jump suit and then I'm guessing it's not voluntary). My state doesn't require it ... as far as I know doesn't mention it. If I've got valid id for my state's requirements and a notary asked for my thumb print, I'd move along to someone else as I'd feel the notary was ... not sure the term I want to use. A few years ago Chase sent out a memo stating unless required by your state that notaries were NOT permitted to take finger prints ... I'm guessing a few too many complaits from signers. Just because something is the norm in one area of the country doesn't mean other areas readily agree that 'it's best'.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/09 10:17am
Msg #291125

Re: "MANDATORY in Cook County Illinois" ONLY in very limited ..

I've never liked the idea of giving out my finger prints, either... but I'm pretty much used to it now. Besides, I leave them everywhere I go.

California requires a thumbprint when you get a drivers license or ID card, and as mentioned earlier for notarial services relating to deeds and POAs. Of course, to even get our commissions we had to have the full-on live scan printing, which is required for just about every professional license, commission or designation in the state, as well as anyone who works in a hospital, skilled nursing facility, assisted living facility, child care facility, foster care, and on and on.

We're so used to it now that people don't even think twice about a thumbprint in a journal. If they've given me their CA DL or ID that state already has their thumbprint anyway. In fact, a lot of people somehow get oddly excited by the whole thumb printing device because they're generally used to having it done electronically. They're amazed the ink just rubs off. LOL

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/09 12:17am
Msg #291096

It's mandatory in CA for Deeds and POA documents...

But I get it every single time, no matter what. Most people in California just expect it now even if it isn't mandatory. It gets too confusing to explain to them when it is or isn't required... they don't really care. It's easier just to always require it.

But if they refuse to give it and it's not a deed or POA, no biggie.

Reply by Gary_CA on 6/4/09 2:50pm
Msg #291149

Re: It's mandatory in CA for Deeds and POA documents...

I'm with you except for one major twist... I ask for it all the time but now and then if it's not Deed or POA I'll skip it. It really is a protection for the signer. Whenever I get asked (not often, like you say, most folks just consider it standard) I always say "When somebody borrows money against your house we want to be sure it's you"

Here's the twist though... I've never confronted it, but I decided from the beginning that if I request a thumbprint and get refused I'm not going to stamp. Period. Have a nice day.

Julie would throw me out of her house, and I understand that...some folks want to protect all their rights. But the refusal of that absolute identification for a notarized document just makes me think fraud.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/4/09 12:25am
Msg #291097

In this day and age, if some's good, more's better. Loan

docs are rife with security backups - all kinds of affidavits and legalezed statements - but a thumbprint is a thumbprint. Well-settled evidence.

Not being in a metro area, here in the sticks, my borrowers are pretty easy to read. Yet, once in a great while, the hairs on the back of my neck just stand right up, and I elect to use the little round thumbprinter. Since I cover the all of the previous signers' info in my journal, and my journal has a 'thumbprint' block, the request seems so 'normal,' I have no problem getting the prints in those situations. While it may not be required in Oregon, I see it as perfectly within my pervue for security's sake to use my discretion.

I like the attachment info. Thanks. Handy as a shirt on a pocket.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 6/4/09 5:14am
Msg #291105

Not mandatory in Tn but I've done it since day one...

I've had 6 people refuse (meaning here: husband refused and wife followed suit), two were members of law enforcement and 4 black couples. Did they all have something to hide? Very doubtful. It's also a fact in this day in age that some folks don't believe Big Brother has the right to infringe on their privacy. There's two sides to every story.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/4/09 1:35pm
Msg #291144

Re: Not mandatory in Tn but I've done it since day one...

"Did they have something to hide?" I very much doubt they did too. I try to couch the request as a safeguard for the borrowers. If they refuse, I just move on and finish the job.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/4/09 4:16pm
Msg #291159

Re: Not mandatory in Tn but I've done it since day one...

<<<I've had 6 people refuse (meaning here: husband refused and wife followed suit), two were members of law enforcement and 4 black couples.>>>

I notarized a signature of a chief of police, got his thumbprint, no problem and the doc didn't require a thumbprint. BTW, what does being black have to do with not giving a thumbprint? If nothing or "very doubtful" as you put it, then why mention race AT ALL?

Reply by SueW/Tn on 6/4/09 5:47pm
Msg #291170

I mention it Lisa because it was asked "who would refuse"?

don't even start up with the race issue, I've heard enough of that this year to last me well into the next. BUT since you asked I'll answer:

I explained how the thumbprint is a means of protection regarding fraud and the reply from the man of the house was identical: "the man doesn't need to know anymore about me than what I elect to reveal".

There ya go...if you don't want to know...DON'T ASK

Reply by parkerc/ME on 6/4/09 8:35am
Msg #291113

I don't fingerprint

Agree with Sue/PA and Brenda/TX. In my state, we're told not to fingerprint. May change in the future, who knows . . but IMO it falls under the civil liberties realm. I think a lot of these additional requirements, which vary from state to state, are imposed based on problems the state may have historically encountered. Maine obviously hasn't encountered enough problems to warrant a fingerprint requirement. "Maine . . the way life shoud be" !!! lol

Reply by parkerc/ME on 6/4/09 8:36am
Msg #291114

Re: I don't fingerprint

Correction . . not civil liberties, but privacy realm.

Reply by CH2inCA on 6/4/09 8:51am
Msg #291119

:0) I've come across the complete opposite reaction to fingerprinting. A few times only one document will require a fingerprint so I've told the client which line to place the print on. They've sort of smiled and asked if they can do the rest too! I didn't see any harm in it so, I said, 'go for it'.
Yep only in CA....

Reply by OR on 6/4/09 11:25am
Msg #291133

Re:In Oregon

It is not required in Oregon so I don't thumb print. I have never been ask for a print.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/4/09 1:30pm
Msg #291143

I had to give a fingerprint to cash a check at a bank here

in Oregon a while back. Bank policy. Not a notary issue, but a fingerprinting issue.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 6/4/09 11:35am
Msg #291135

If I am conducting a loan closing for a California property, I ask for a thumbprint. The signers usually expect it and no one has refused to give it.

Florida doesn't even require a journal, but it is "suggested" one be used. Although I have not had any refusals, I would not refuse to notarize a signature based only on the refusal to sign my journal.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/4/09 4:44pm
Msg #291165

Theresa...why do you thumbprint for California properties? It's not required here in FL, and we can't refuse to notarize if they refuse to give a thumbprint - if you don't take thumbprints across the board why do you restrict it to CA properties?? I must be missing something here..

Also, as to this - "I would not refuse to notarize a signature based only on the refusal to sign my journal." - IMHO you wouldn't get away with it if you tried if you got a savvy signer. I think the signature in the journal scenario goes right along with the thumbprint - neither are required so, technically, you CAN'T refuse to notarize just because they refuse.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/4/09 7:07pm
Msg #291180

I'm a Fla. notary, and I keep a journal, but rarely have people sign it, because most times, the person signs it and then goes on their way, and I complete the journal after they leave. Since most Fla. notaries don't keep a journal anyway, at least I have everything documented. I do require signatures for random people that walk in off the street, and always for marriages. I have never asked for a thumbprint because I know most signers would refuse it - getting ink all over their hands and everything when it isn't required by law. Plus, the notary handbook specifically states we can't refuse to notarize based on refusal of a thumbprint.

Reply by PAW on 6/4/09 7:39pm
Msg #291183

"Thumbprints are not authorized", so says the FL SOS

However, that doesn't mean you can't ask. You can ask once and if they refuse, so be it. Same with the journal. I don't know how many (percentage or actual number) FL notaries do or don't use a journal, but most of the ones I have worked with doing general notary work in the field, not offices, do use a journal and do have them signed. I'm one of them that do.

>>> I do require signatures for random people that walk in off the street, and always for marriages. <<<

You can't **require** it, per the FL SOS office. You can ask, but if refused, you can't push the issue. Be happy you logged the information in your journal and annotate the signature space stating that the signer refused to sign. Nothing else you can do.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 6/4/09 9:15pm
Msg #291198

Linda - I do not require thumbprints

Maybe my post was not clear enough. I know that FL does not require or even authorize thumbprints be taken. My experience has been that signers from CA (who are usually in town on vacation and refinancing their CA property), expect a thumbprint to be taken. I have made it a practice to take them in these situations only because I have been questioned more than once when I did not ask for them. It seems to make the signers more comfortable, since that is what they are used to.

My remark concerning signatures in my journal was in response to another poster's message about what would cause them to refuse to notarize. A journal is not required in FL, therefore a refusal to notarize based on the signer's refusal to sign my journal would not enable me to refuse a notarization. I have never had a signer refuse to sign my journal and know I cannot refuse a notarization based on that.

A couple of years ago I received a frantic call from a SS who needed a notary immediately to perform a purchase closing in the office of a local TC. It seems the original notary who had been sent on the assignment was insisting that the signer sign her journal and provide a thumbprint. The signer was refusing to provide a thumbprint, so the notary refused the notarization. The notary obviously did not know she could not require thumbprints. Unfortunately, I was on my way to another closing and could not accommodate their request.

Reply by Julie/MI on 6/4/09 12:41pm
Msg #291140

I would throw you out of my home

I'd be peeved if a notary came to my home and wanted fingerprints and it was not required by the state.

I'd call the lender and title company.

I don't believe it's up to the notary to make laws or personal decisions on this.

Reply by LynnNC on 6/4/09 1:01pm
Msg #291141

Julie - I agree with you on thumbprints...

...but from my personal experience, it is wise to keep a notary journal even if is not required by the state.

I received a letter from the NC SOS several months ago when a borrower accused me of forging his signature on loan documents. While a journal is not required in NC, luckily, I did so anyway, and had his DL information and signature in it. Interestingly, his wife was also on the loan and her DL information and signature in my journal...I wonder if he realized that his accusation meant she would have been complicit with me!

My guess is he had a subprime loan and was in foreclosure and tried to say that he didn’t sign the loan documents.

Reply by jojo_MN on 6/4/09 1:45pm
Msg #291145

That is exactly why I thumbprint

Journals are not required, but highly suggested in MN, WI and Ia. I have done it since day one and I also thumbprint. I've never had a refusal, but when anyone asks why, I just say it is for their protection as well as mine. I explain that it is one more way to prevent identiy theft. They are always more than happy to comply.

Notaries (on this forum) have been saved because of their thumbprinting.

On a side note, many banks in my area are now requring thumbprints of anyone cashing checks that are non-members.

Reply by jojo_MN on 6/4/09 2:02pm
Msg #291147

IDs and Signatures can be forged.. . .thumbprints can't. n/m

Reply by John Schenk on 6/4/09 5:45pm
Msg #291169

Well, I think it was a good discussion...

It appears that those that don't want to do it obviously won't, and those that are doing it are going to keep doing it to protect themselves, or because it's required in their state.

Appreciate all the input. Thought it was a good thread, and I respect the views of both sides, whether I agree with them or not. Sometimes we have to agree to disagree.

Best of luck in your signings! I'm headed to my next one now.

JJ :-)

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/4/09 5:58pm
Msg #291171

I totally agree. It was a lively and worthwhile discussion. n/m

Reply by Julie/MI on 6/4/09 8:18pm
Msg #291185

My journal is the register of deeds office

I don't do general notary work, so if the mortgage records, the signature I witnessed is right there in the register of deeds office. If I had a kept a journal, it would be the same signature. kwim?