Posted by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 4:07pm
Msg #290843

My new favorite acknowledgment form

STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS:
That before me, the undersigned officer, a duly commissioned and sworn Notary Public in and for the State of Florida at Large, appointed by the executive authority of said state to administer oaths and take acknowledgments and proofs of execution of deeds, powers of attorneys, and generally all pieces of writing to be used or recorded in the said state of Florida, on this day personally came and appeared _______________________, proved to me on the basis of personal knowledge to be the person who executed the annexed and foregoing instrument by her sealed and subscribed, and she acknowledged to me that she executed the same as her voluntary act and deed and for the uses and purposes as therein set forth.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I grant these presents under my hand and seal of office at Tampa, in the County and State first aforesaid, this ________ day of _________________, A.D. 2009.

(Signed) NOTARY PUBLIC


.... this is so much more elegant than "The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me on June 2, 2009" !

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/2/09 4:13pm
Msg #290844

IMO over the top - a lot of unnecessary wording - and when doing loan signings you're going to force an extra page of recording fees as you'll be attaching your own loose acks - which many lenders don't like.

Yes, looks fancy - but it's unnecessary....

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 4:14pm
Msg #290846

I don't do loan signings. I just think it adds a little more importance to the document.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/2/09 4:15pm
Msg #290847

But your business is the signature - NOT the document.. n/m

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 4:17pm
Msg #290849

Re: But your business is the signature - NOT the document..

In the line of work I'm in, my business is the document as well.

Reply by Jim/AL on 6/2/09 4:25pm
Msg #290852

What business are you in Robert? n/m

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 4:26pm
Msg #290853

Re: What business are you in Robert?

I'm a legal assistant. My experience is in probate documents, wills, etc. I can't say I know a whole lot about loan closings.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 5:21pm
Msg #290870

Ahh. That explains it. If I had to guess, I'd say you were

newly minted.

Judges want the law. Clients want it simple.

That's been my experience, anyway.

Reply by jba/fl on 6/2/09 4:30pm
Msg #290854

Obfuscate

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull.
W. C. Fields

Me? I subscribe to KISS - keep it simple stupid.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/09 4:52pm
Msg #290861

I'll dance with whatever partner comes to the party.

In other words, if the certificate is on the document, short form or long, I'm using it.

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 5:36pm
Msg #290874

I fully agree. As long as it is in compliance, use it. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/2/09 6:39pm
Msg #290887

I thought you were kidding at first! n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 4:35pm
Msg #290857

Agree with Linda. Does nothing to add to legality of

the document or the notarial block.

Also, "...proved to me on the basis of personal knowledge..." is not true in most cases. I do not have personal knowledge of any of the identities of signers. I'm not sure that cert would fly in Oregon.

Another example of trying to make things 'legaler' (which is a silly-ism, of course. 'More legal' is the meaning.)

JMHO, of course.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 4:43pm
Msg #290860

Re: Agree with Linda. Does nothing to add to legality of

Well, you could certainly substitute "personal knowledge" for "driver license", or whatever. No, this certificate doesn't make it "legaler", it just makes it a little more official looking. And that is something that everybody wants when they are getting something notarized, particularly on an important document such as a power of attorney.

Funnily enough - I am also a commissioner of deeds, and as such I almost have to use a long certificate like that, to explain the authority of the office and to cite the statute relating to it, as most people are unaware that it exists in Florida.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 5:12pm
Msg #290869

Still, Linda and Julianne (right?) make more persuasive

arguments.

"...And that is something that everybody wants..." I'm not sure that's a fact, either. In my over 30 years as a notary public, I've only had *one* person lament the passing of the embosser. I whipped out my handy dandy seal and embossed in *addition* to my stamp, and she beamed as she ran her fingers over the raised circle. "That's much better" she said.

I think people are so sick and tired of legaleze, they are perfectly content with the KISS approach - "Hey, cool. Something I can understand." 'Signed and sworn (or attested) to by...' is clear, concise, and enough. I have never had anyone question my authority to notarize a signature.

But to each his own -

Reply by sue_pa on 6/2/09 10:18pm
Msg #290929

Re: Still, Linda and Julianne (right?) make more persuasive

Same here. I've notarized thousands upon thousands of Wills, POAs, estate paperwork, etc., throughout the past several decades. I've NEVER had one person comment anything about the notarizations.

A while ago someone also commented on this board that borrowers thanked him for notarizing at the table ... surely never a conversation I've ever had with borrowers.

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 5:33pm
Msg #290872

Re: Agree with Linda. Does nothing to add to legality of

>>> "...proved to me on the basis of personal knowledge..." is not true in most cases. <<<

According to the Florida Bar and Florida Supreme court, you darned well better have "personal knowledge" as to the identity of the signer. It doesn't mean that you "personally" know the signer from previous contacts, but it does mean that the signer has proved to you, thus making you knowledgeable personally as to their identity.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 5:53pm
Msg #290878

I understand your point Paul, but I read it differently.

In other language often used: "Personally known to me or proved..." it is clear that one or the other method of identity verification was used.

If that language comports with FL law, then fine and dandy. I find it ambiguous.

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 5:35pm
Msg #290873

>>> ... force an extra page of recording fees as you'll be attaching your own loose acks ... <<<

Why would a Florida notary need to attach a loose acknowledgment? The one presented is in full compliance with Florida statutes. Granted, it is very "flowery", but nonetheless valid.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/2/09 5:45pm
Msg #290876

Will he be able to print all that in the spaces

typically provided? That's what I'm getting at - if he insists on using that particular ack it's more than likely going to end up being on a separate page because for the most part it just won't fit.

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 7:41pm
Msg #290896

Re: Will he be able to print all that in the spaces

I was assuming, maybe incorrectly, that the certificate was already printed on the page. Just needed to be filled in with the appropriate date, name, etc.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/2/09 5:39pm
Msg #290875

You personally know everyone for whom you notarize a sig?

You must know a lot of people...nearly everyone whose signature I notarize have to prove their identity to me. Or is this some Florida thing--you just say 'personal knowledge' which could mean they provided an ID?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/2/09 5:47pm
Msg #290877

No..Florida certs are either "personally known to me..." or

"proven to me.."/"who provided..." where the type of ID presented has to be specified.

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 7:46pm
Msg #290897

Re: You personally know everyone for whom you notarize a sig?

Read the statement very carefully. It says, in part, "proved to me on the basis of personal knowledge". It doesn't say anything about knowing the signer personally, it is all about having personal knowledge of the identity. That's what notaries do, they identify a signer so they have personal knowledge of who the signer is. That's why we, in Florida, cannot use a subscribing witness to attest to the signature of the signer. The signer, in person, must prove to the notary, their identity. Once that is done, then the notary has personal knowledge based on the proof of identity.

Reply by Linda Spanski on 6/2/09 5:54pm
Msg #290879

from the editor:

KNOW ALL MEN BY THESE PRESENTS:

<What? This makes no sense. Presents are gifts.>

acknowledgments and proofs of execution of deeds, powers of attorneys, and generally all pieces of writing

<powers of attorneys? ... don't feed their egos. You mean powers of attorney. All pieces of writing? ... that's gonna impress 'em.>


IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I grant these presents under my hand and seal of office at Tampa, in the County and State first aforesaid, this ________ day of _________________, A.D. 2009.

<You're granting presents? May I have one? I haven't seed A.D. mentioned since the nineteenth century; isn't that pretty much understood?>

The word bloviate comes to mind, Robert.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 5:56pm
Msg #290880

Eagle Eye Linda. n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 6:02pm
Msg #290882

On the other hand, when one presents a play or a weapon,

one offers it for view.

So, in a verb sense, it flies.

Reply by Robert Koehler on 6/2/09 6:28pm
Msg #290885

Re: On the other hand, when one presents a play or a weapon,

"Know All Men By These Presents" is a very common expression on documents. "Presents" refers to whatever tangible or intangible things is being granted/given in the document. The "present" can be a piece of property, money, or a certain authority to do something (such as a power of attorney). I didn't pull this acknowledgment out of the air - it's a real acknowledgment form that fully complies with Florida statutes.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/09 6:46pm
Msg #290888

Re: On the other hand, when one presents a play or a weapon,

"Presents"

My only experience with "Know all men by these presents..."
is when it is in a conveyance document.

I have never parsed the definitions but figured that the "presents" that the "presents" meant what is being presented.

In fact, when you have at the top of the document (where I'm from):

State of Texas

County of Brazoria

And then you have "Know all men...presents"

The state and county reference is the property's venue, not the notary's venue.

The notary's venue is below, above the certificate.

That's a fact from my friendly Texas legal advisor's almanac. You, you Florida notary, you've confused me...but wait...nope...not confusion....I'll stick to what my Texas real estate lawyer's advice is!

Reply by PAW on 6/2/09 7:53pm
Msg #290898

Re: On the other hand, when one presents a play or a weapon,

You will find that 'greeting' often used on awards, certificates of achievement and accomplishment, especially in the military. The Americanized version reads, "KNOW YE BY ALL PRESENT, THAT ..."

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/2/09 7:57pm
Msg #290899

Yep...you're right about that! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 6/2/09 6:56pm
Msg #290891

Archiac comes to my mind. n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 6/2/09 7:02pm
Msg #290892

Sorry - Archaic, archaic, archaic, archaic, archaic

5 times - should be mine now. Hah! (Like Murphy Brown would say it!)

Reply by jba/fl on 6/2/09 7:07pm
Msg #290893

Or: antediluvian

While I was looking up archaic I found this as a synonym: it's the period before The BiG Flood. Better I think. First time I ever got to use it....

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/2/09 8:34pm
Msg #290913

lol. Now, that's ~old~ n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 6/2/09 6:48pm
Msg #290890

So much of the language involved in law & real estate transactions is a carry-over from the way the British wrote these documents. Some like the tradition, while others see it as antiquated. I know lots of people who like the KJV of the bible, with all the thee's and thou's.
I personally like things simple & direct. What's the point of language that people get lost in.

Reply by Les_CO on 6/2/09 8:23pm
Msg #290908

Good on you Robert! Thirty-four answers (so far) to just a muse….got those FL Notaries going. You should be fun here!

Reply by parkerc/ME on 6/2/09 9:33pm
Msg #290922

It really needs a "HEAR YE, HEAR YE" preface n/m

Reply by parkerc/ME on 6/2/09 9:37pm
Msg #290923

Re: It really needs a "HEAR YE, HEAR YE" preface

Sorry, it just struck me that way initially. I'm too tired ...everything is funny right now. lol

Reply by Elizabeth Soliday on 6/2/09 11:34pm
Msg #290937

Re: It really needs a "HEAR YE, HEAR YE" preface

I thought it was funny

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 6/2/09 11:43pm
Msg #290939

Holy Moley! Robert, you must either be joking around to

try to yank a few chains on this site and set a record for the all time worlds longest thread, or you have one highly over-inflated ego. In any case, you will have one hell of a let down when the reality of the world finally sets in .....

California would drive you crazy. The wording for jurats and acks is very specific and cannot be added to nor subtracted from ..