Posted by KC/CA on 6/26/09 2:58pm
Msg #293726

Request for Driver's Lic by Sigining Service

I know it's in here somewhere, but I can't seem to find comments with the orange button regarding the advice, pro or con, of sending the requested Driver's licence to the signing service to get on their list. Anyone now the msg #'s or the best practice tips? thx!!

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/26/09 3:10pm
Msg #293727

When an SS will send me their background check &/or DL, I'll send mine. In other words--it ain't happening. Nor have I ever found NOT providing it to be a problem.

Reply by Jim/AL on 6/26/09 4:04pm
Msg #293734

Send a copy with all but name and expiration blacked out...

that should be sufficient.

Reply by John/CT on 6/26/09 6:10pm
Msg #293746

I black out number and date of birth ...

never had any negative feedback.

Reply by KC/CA on 6/26/09 9:32pm
Msg #293763

Re: I black out number and date of birth ...

Thanks everyone! DL# & DOB were the concerns - didn't think of blacking them out. Dah!! thanks again - we'll see what they say.

Reply by PAW on 6/27/09 9:02am
Msg #293792

I do not provide a copy of my D/L (redacted or not). When asked, I reply, "pursuant to Florida Statutes §119.0712, federal statutes 18 USC §2721 to §2725 and on advice of legal counsel, a copy of my driver's license will not be provided."

Reply by Charles_Ca on 6/27/09 1:42pm
Msg #293809

I'm definitely with Paul on this one. With the DL and your SSN they have complete ID and I don't know of any SS that comply with GLB!

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/27/09 4:52pm
Msg #293817

They ask for the DL for the same reason we ask for it...

... to verify identity. Both the FL statutes and the federal statutes you cited specifically allow an exemption for this reason; I'm not an attorney, but it sounds like the request is probably legal.

OTOH, they can ask for whatever they want - that doesn't mean you have to give it to them. That also means they can choose not to do business with you, just as we would refuse to notarize if the signer refuse to provide valid ID.

Blacking out the more sensitive info that they really have no need for (like DL number, DOB, and SSN) seems like a reasonable compromise.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/27/09 5:01pm
Msg #293818

Aw...c'mon....

When they receive a copy of my DL, trust me, I'm not standing there in front of them, nor do I have a webcam so they can actually 'see' that I am who I have ID for. I just really don't see a true 'need' for this.
Just for the record, I have sent a copy to a few....info blacked out. I've also refused. No problem either way.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/27/09 8:57pm
Msg #293838

Re: Aw...c'mon....

Lee. I think the point is that they're just verifying your ID document against other info you've provided - your name and address. It's not required, most probably won't make an issue of it, but it's not an improper request either.

You provide it or don't provide it - your call. If and when I provide it, sensitive info is blacked out.

Reply by PAW on 6/27/09 7:41pm
Msg #293833

Re: They ask for the DL for the same reason we ask for it...

Mike, please explain how providing a copy of a driver's license allows them to "verify" identity, especially if the "identifying" items are redacted. There's nothing that says I couldn't provide a fake DL or even somebody else's. And the exemption for identification is for (1) law enforcement, (2) legal requirements or (3) opening of a financial account. Further, the identification must be provided in person and not be a copy. Copies can be made by those accepting the original ID when provided by the person being identified.

Reply by PAW on 6/27/09 8:04pm
Msg #293835

Continuing ...

Specifically, 18 USC §2722(a) states, "It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to obtain or disclose personal information, from a motor vehicle record, for any use not permitted under section 2721 (b) of this title."

Further §2724 states, "A person who knowingly obtains, discloses or uses personal information, from a motor vehicle record, for a purpose not permitted under this chapter shall be liable to the individual to whom the information pertains, who may bring a civil action in a United States district court."

Where §2725 defines a motor vehicle record as, "... any record that pertains to a motor vehicle operator’s permit, motor vehicle title, motor vehicle registration, or identification card issued by a department of motor vehicles."

Use by a "signing service" does not fall under permitted uses as defined in 18 USC §2721(b). Sub-paragraph (3) defines the use for business purposes which state:

"For use in the normal course of business by a legitimate business or its agents, employees, or contractors, but only:
"(A) to verify the accuracy of personal information submitted by the individual to the business or its agents, employees, or contractors; AND
"(B) if such information as so submitted is not correct or is no longer correct, to obtain the correct information, but only for the purposes of preventing fraud by, pursuing legal remedies against, or recovering on a debt or security interest against, the individual."

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/27/09 9:28pm
Msg #293840

Re: Continuing ...

"Use by a "signing service" does not fall under permitted uses as defined in 18 USC §2721(b). Sub-paragraph (3) defines the use for business purposes which state:

"For use in the normal course of business by a legitimate business or its agents, employees, or contractors, but only:
"(A) to verify the accuracy of personal information submitted by the individual to the business or its agents, employees, or contractors;"

Thank you - you just proved my point. That's exactly what they're doing - verifying the accuracy of personal information submitted by an individual. Unless there's something in there that specifically says "except for signing services", it's a legitimate REQUEST - not a requirement.

Reply by PAW on 6/27/09 9:50pm
Msg #293842

Re: Continuing ...

They need to comply with both (A) **and** (B), not just the first part. It's all or nothing. Notice the word "AND" at the end of (A), where (B) states: "if such information as so submitted is not correct or is no longer correct, to obtain the correct information, but only for the purposes of preventing fraud by, pursuing legal remedies against, or recovering on a debt or security interest against, the individual."

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/28/09 12:04am
Msg #293845

Re: Continuing ...

"Notice the word "AND" at the end of (A), where (B) states: "if such information as so submitted is not correct or is no longer correct, to obtain the correct information, but only for the purposes of preventing fraud by, pursuing legal remedies against, or recovering on a debt or security interest against, the individual."

Oh, come on - John Doe CLAIMS to be a notary. How do they know they're dealing with the real John Doe unless they see ID that matches the other info he has provided? Doesn't that come under the heading of "preventing fraud", or are you maintaining that they should simply accept him at his word simply because he claims to be a notary?

It's not that big a deal, and it's not an illegal request. You can block out the info they don't need to see and provide them with the basics - or you can provide them with nothing at all. It's your choice. There is nothing in the federal statutes that says they can't ask for it, and the FL statutes mirror the fed, so citing them is a bit of overkill. There's also nothing that says you MUST provide it when they ask, so it's a personal choice.

Reply by PAW on 6/28/09 7:30am
Msg #293852

Re: Continuing ...

>>> Oh, come on - John Doe CLAIMS to be a notary. How do they know they're dealing with the real John Doe unless they see ID that matches the other info he has provided? Doesn't that come under the heading of "preventing fraud", or are you maintaining that they should simply accept him at his word simply because he claims to be a notary? <<<

Tell me how the SS, or anyone, can 'see ID that matches', when the document is faxed or emailed? They're not necessarily seeing the correct ID. It wouldn't be too difficult to make a set of fake documents and fax them (or scan and email them) if someone wanted to commit fraud. Why do you think many states do not allow copies of ID to be used for identification purposes?

What has a DL got to do with proving a claim that John Doe is a notary? If the Notary Commission Certificate (or whatever documentation the state provides) isn't good enough, then nothing is. Further, in Florida anyway, anyone can determine someone's notary status on-line, or by requesting the information from the Secretary of State's office or the Notary Section of the Governor's Executive Office. Verifying whether or not someone is a duly and active commissioned notary can be accomplished in every state, usually through the SOS office. Many have on-line database search capability. Copies of driver's licenses, insurance policies, etc. are basically meaningless. It's funny to note that it is usually signing services that ask for all the 'extra' documentation (copies of DL, etc.). Copies of the notary certificate, W-9 and E&O policy are enough to satisfy most title companies and lenders, for those who even ask for it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/28/09 5:28pm
Msg #293892

Re: Continuing ...

Paul, it should be fairly obvious - John Doe provides a copy of his notary commission, his E&O insurance, his personal address info (so they know where the checks they may or may not send are supposed to go), his EIN (if he's smart enough to protect his SSN) and a redacted copy of his DL. If everything matches, there's no problem.

Is it possible that some or all of it is bogus? Absolutely. It's probably easier to fake a notary commission than it is to fake a DL (NY also offers online access to notary commission info, but not all states do, so in some cases it's harder to check). I seriously doubt that any SS will take the time to check- the most they'll do is look at the documents they have and decide whether or not it's a go. In some cases, they won't even care - they could just be collecting info as a CYA in case something happens somewhere down the line.

I'm not arguing that they SHOULD ask for a copy of the DL, and I personally think it's a really bad idea to provide a copy without blacking out the info they really don't need to see. My point is simply that they CAN ask for it - there's no law that prevents it, but there's also no law that compels you to provide it and you can certainly refuse to do so.

Claiming that federal and state statutes prohibit them from doing so (which is what started this conversation between us, but now we seemed to have switched gears....) is just wrong. If it were true, why is it OK for the clerk at the local 7/11 to check ID before selling beer or cigarettes to someone they think looks too young? Or for a bouncer at a local bar to check ID before allowing entrance? Or for a clerk at a store to ask for ID before accepting a check? Or for a bank teller to ask for ID before cashing a check? Your interpretation of the statutes would make all of that illegal - but they're not.

Anyone can ASK for ID. I simply suggested a reason why an SS might want to, and I have no opinion on whether or not it makes any sense to do so. It's up to the individual being asked to decide whether or not to provide it.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 6/27/09 9:22pm
Msg #293839

Re: They ask for the DL for the same reason we ask for it...

All they're doing is confirming name and address - the "identifying" information that is redacted is not needed. Why on earth would they need your D/L# or DOB? When you take an ID before notarizing a signature, do you then run the D/L# through Florida DMV to determine whether it's valid? If not, how is it "identifying" information for you? It's not, and you really don't need it.

Secondly, read the statutes you cited, specifically 18 USC §2721(b)(3)(A) and Florida Statutes §119.0712(4)(a). They're almost identical, and they both ALLOW a legitimate business to request a motor vehicle license for the purpose of verifying identity. Unless you're going to argue that an SS is not a legitimate business (and that case can be made for some of them), I don't see how you can say that they're not allowed to do this.

Again, you can certainly refuse to comply with their request - there's nothing in the statutes that says you MUST comply, and you're certainly within your rights to refuse to comply, but there's no law that says they can't ask for it. My point is that it appears to be a legal and legitimate REQUEST, not a requirement - and if you decide to provide it, you should black out the info they don't need to see.

Reply by PAW on 6/27/09 9:54pm
Msg #293843

You need to read the statutes more closely

"For use in the normal course of business by a legitimate business or its agents, employees, or contractors, but only:

"(A) to verify the accuracy of personal information submitted by the individual to the business or its agents, employees, or contractors;

*** AND ***

"(B) if such information as so submitted is not correct or is no longer correct, to obtain the correct information, but only for the purposes of preventing fraud by, pursuing legal remedies against, or recovering on a debt or security interest against, the individual."

Reply by Stamper_WI on 6/28/09 7:17am
Msg #293851

Re: You need to read the statutes more closely

The request for the DL is usually with the submission of the info. Never have I been told that they already checked my info and there are any problems or decrepency with it. The requests literally come out of the blue with their first contact with me. I have no idea who they are.
One of these days, just to see what happens if I I ask them to "Show me yours first"

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/27/09 11:44am
Msg #293802

Ask WHY? Request for Driver's Lic by Sigining Service

Why--exactly--would they NEED a copy of a Driver's License? If you are an unlicensed driver and you get a ticket--not their problem. So, why? So they can see what you look like? How young or old you are? Too much unneeded info on a D.L.
I've asked and never gotten an answer that makes any sense.

Reply by Joseph Scamardi on 6/27/09 3:28pm
Msg #293814

A request for any document other than a business card with your photo with title and services offered should be sufficient!

Reply by Les_CO on 6/28/09 11:38am
Msg #293865

I operate my notary signings as a business. My business is incorporated. My business has no driver license. When someone hires me they hire my business, my business invoices them, and they pay my business. They get a W-9 with my business EIN. I have no problem sending a copy of my personal notary commission, insurance, or criminal background check. They do not need my driver license, my SS number, or my credit card numbers. I do not want to work for anyone dense enough to ask for this personal information.