Posted by Marian_in_CA on 6/15/09 10:47pm
Msg #292383

Would NSAs be considered Professional Photocopiers? (long!)

I touched on this deep in another thread some time ago, but I found something really interesting that got me to thinking, which is always trouble!

This is really only for California... but if you like puzzles, read on!

There is a bill in the CA Assembly that would modify notary requirements for professional photocopiers. Simply put, the state requires professional photocopiers to register with the County Clerk. Also, before being able to register, at least one of the managing members of the management of said photocopier must be a CA Notary. As a side note, this bill would modify that rule so that the company could use the commission of an employee to qualify rather than a manger. But that's not really what I care about with this.

I do a LOT of research. A LOT!! So when I get curious about something, look out. Anyway, I went scouring through the State Code and the different forms to find out just what, exactly, is a "professional photocopier". Like Notary law, this information is found all over the State Code!

The definition is found in the Business & Professions Code, 22450:

"22450. A professional photocopier is any person who for
compensation obtains or reproduces documents authorized to be
produced under Part 2.6 (commencing with Section 56) of Division 1
of, or Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 1798) of Title 1.8 of Part
4 of Division 3 of, the Civil Code, or Section 1158 of, or Article 4
(commencing with Section 1560) of Chapter 2 of Division 11 of, the
Evidence Code and who, while engaged in performing that activity, has
access to the information contained therein. A professional
photocopier shall be registered pursuant to this chapter by the
county clerk of the county in which he or she resides or has his or
her principal place of business, and in which he or she maintains a
branch office."

And note:

"22454. At least one person involved in the management of a
professional photocopier shall be required to hold a current
commission from the Secretary of State as a notary public in this
state."


Great... thank you very much, state lawmakers. Make us go hunt through more code!

Starting with Civil Code Section 56... this relates to use and disclosure of medical information. Okay, probably not anything most of us will need to worry about.

But then we move on to Civil Code 1798 ... this deals with General Privacy protection laws and includes social security numbers and driver license information among other things. Okay, we DEFINITELY deal with this. Therefore, for those of us who print copies of loan documents... it seems we do fall under the definition os a professional photocopier!

Just for kicks, I checked the Evidence Code 1560... that deals with subpoenas and process servers.

Now, in the normal course of our commissions, Notaries are not actually reproducing or copying anything. The exception to that (remember this is CA) is to make copies of our journals when required by law.

So, that gets me to the "exemptions" part. For that we go back to the B&P Code

"22451. This chapter does not apply to any of the following:
(a) Any government employee who is acting in the course of his or
her employment.
(b) A member of the State Bar or his or her employees, agents, or
independent contractors.
(c) Any person who is specially appointed by the court to obtain
or reproduce in order to transmit or distribute those records.
(d) An employee or agent of a person who is registered under this
chapter.
(e) Any custodian of records who makes his or her own copies.
(f) Any certified shorthand reporter, official court reporter, or
stenotype operator who makes his or her own copies.
(g) Any person licensed under Chapter 11.5 (commencing with
Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code or
his or her employees.
(h) The Office of the Secretary of State."

It would, therefore, seem that Notaries are exempt from registration because thye are directed, by law, to copy those pages in their journal when needed.

But, this does NOT cover our work as signing agents. Or does it? Part D of the exemptions states that "an employee or agent" who is registered is exempt. And part B clearly says that anyone working for, representing ro contracting with an attorney is exempt. Note that Part D does not mention independent contractors?


I showed this to an attorney this afternoon to get his opinion and he said that on the surface... we might very well be considered professional photocopiers if we accept E-docs and print multiple copies because (these are his words):

"a) State Code requires professional photocopiers to have a Notary Public in management. That means a logical person would assume that being a Notary, on it own, is not sufficient exemption because it is actually a prerequisite to registration.
b) As a signing agent, you are an independent contractor and a neutral third-party. You do not act as an employee or agent for anyone. That means you would only be covered if you contracted with a member of the State Bar.
c) Loan documents contain substantial amounts of personal identifying information and you are being paid to print or reproduce them in print for the benefit of the individual or company paying for your service.

I suggest that you consider registering as a professional photocopier or at least contact the County Clerk and see what they say. With legislation pending on that part of the section of code, it may attract attention from state authorities looking for sources of revenue!"


What do you guys think? I'm just throwing this out there and it will likely mean very little to anyone, but in researching the process to do this... it costs about $250 to register in Los Angeles County, and it's likely similar everywhere else. And, the registration is only good for TWO years... and it requires a $5,000 bond. Yes, in addition to any bond or filing fees you paid to become a notary. This is totally separate.

Here's the ironic part... the county is required to issue them an ID card!


I'm going to make more calls on this and see where it takes me, but it's actually kind of annoying. I'm sure the SOS would have said something by now if they felt we needed to register in that manner... but it still doesn't mean we don't fall under the definition as loan signing agents. Not as notaries per se ... but as loan signing agents.

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 6/16/09 12:12am
Msg #292391

No, not even close!

Professional photocopiers are a completely different designation. You must be slow if you have time to waste on this...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/16/09 1:01am
Msg #292392

Re: No, not even close!

No, I'm not "slow" or lacking in work, thank you very much. I make it a point to know my state law and how it applies to me, and to other professionals. And since it involves notaries... and potential new legislation you bet I'm going to find out what it's about. If this bill passes, Notaries in this state may be approached by business owners asking permission to use their commission number in order to register with the state. And I can TOTALLY see unscrupulous owners promising notaries work in exchange.

It might not mean anything to you... but it does to me.

You say they're different... but then how?

Reply by BobbiCT on 6/16/09 6:58am
Msg #292394

California - ROFLOL :)

Sounds like the State of California's goal to increase revenue and eliminate all "fraud" will be soon be met by requiring every California resident to become a notary public. Certainly helps solve the budget problem and increases the need for "state certified notary instructors," with annual renewal fees for both every year

Sorry! Too good to pass up. I see no practical reason to require a photographer to become a notary. Granted, they do passport photos, but then it's up to the Feds when the passport application is submitted to review ALL the documentation. The photo is only part of it.

Coming soon to California: All restaurants must have at least one manager as a notary - because a notary is the most trusted individual to determine that the chef is including the correct proportion of ingredients for each menu item . LOL

Reply by John Schenk on 6/16/09 7:16am
Msg #292395

Marian, for a definitive answer...

pose this to the Attorney General for an opinion. It may take a few weeks to get a response, but you'll definitely have an answer that is authoritative. That's one of the things the AG is there for.

JJ

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/16/09 10:47am
Msg #292403

It's not that easy to get an AG's opinion...in Tx or Ca...

...unless Marian knows one or some of these folks...

the Governor
the head of a department of state government
the head or board of a penal institution
the head or board of an eleemosynary institution
the head of a state board
a regent or trustee of a state educational institution
a committee of a house of the Legislature
a county auditor authorized by law
the chairman of the governing board of a river authority

Of course, this is the Texas list, but Ca's isn't much different.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/16/09 10:48am
Msg #292404

Meant to say it isn't easy to get AG opinion

because you have to be a designated requestor. Hence the list.

Reply by Linda Hubbell on 6/16/09 9:10am
Msg #292396

MHO this goes more for the true "Professional Photocopiers" - Kinkos, OfficeMax, etc., etc. - who are used many times to, for example, photocopy entire legal files for transfer to another attorney, photocopy entire medical files in triplicate for trial prep, etc....this legislation would require that at least one member of the photocopier be able to certify true copies...

I don't see this extending to notary signing agents...I think that's really a stretch....JMO

Reply by Jeff Ortler on 6/16/09 9:17am
Msg #292397

Professional Photocopier

Copy places are not professional photocopiers. A professional photocopier is someone who takes portable equipment to specified locations for the purpose of copying records to be used mostly in a lawsuit. Some of the documents copied might be financial data and therefore someone on the team needs to be a notary to ensure GLBA compliance. So you dont need to waste any of your time with any further research.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/16/09 9:26am
Msg #292398

IMO I think this is another example of why many of us cringe & think of CA as the "land of lawyers". I don't know how you all deal with being legislated to death. It seems like all the high profile & high publicity cases come from CA also; O. J. Simpson, OctoMom, etc. Too much "Hollywood" for me.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 6/16/09 10:13am
Msg #292400

OMG .... a perfect opportunity for the XYZ...

...it has all the basic elements for another XYZ promotional opportunity: special GLBA compliance necessitating need for a background check that can only be delivered by one entity (at an inflated cost) along w/required membership in the professional organization/section. There could probably be a demonstrated need for some sort of electronic seal that could be used for verification of Professional Photocopier status, commission number, sale of bonds & Copy Error Insurance, etc, etc. Don't laugh, it could happen.

Reply by davidK/CA on 6/16/09 11:31am
Msg #292409

Re: OMG .... a perfect opportunity for the XYZ...

Yup.
"Make BIG MONEY as a Professional Photocopier! A limited opportunity to start a full time career in high demand by individuals and companies everywhere. Get your training from the nations leading educational organization recognized by Notaries Public in all 50 states.

Our eight hour training class will be offered at the low price of $299.00. You will learn how to make photocopies, the wide range of functions of the "print" button and how to properly open a package of copy paper. You will become a registered expert, who can determine what side of the paper needs to be copied, information you need to know for success and BIG MONEY in this highly needed field. Apply now before our classes are filled in your area. Membership in our professional copier section required."

(c) 2009 David R. Kruss All rights reserved.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/17/09 2:09am
Msg #292525

Puhleeeaaase!!! Don't give them any more ideas!! ;>) n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/16/09 2:17pm
Msg #292442

I know what you mean! Most people don't realize that the majority of that State is actually really Conservative "keep out of my business" types --- but all of the money and thus the votes from the sheeple are usually centered in a few coastal areas.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/16/09 2:15pm
Msg #292440

Thanks everyone. I think it's ridiculous myself... but I have a call in to the County Clerk for more information. The person I spoke to said that under the strictest definition that someone accepting and printing loan documents would be considered a professional photocopier. However, the reality is that these are people who are hired to do other duties such as copying court documents and medical records. These are people who are usually also process servers or paralegals working to support law offices and the majority of them never need to register because they are working directly with attorneys.

She did say that she'd ask her manager about it and get back to me... because legally, we ARE being hired to reproduce documents that contain sensitive information and that is what a professional photocopier does.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 6/16/09 3:18pm
Msg #292445

This is another example

of why CA is in the deep doodo that they are. All of this legislation requires oversight -- thus more bureauracy, more employees, more benefits.

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 6/16/09 3:28pm
Msg #292446

Professional copying & 'certifying' copies

I would think this WOULD apply to places like KINKOS, etc because they actually DO the work - Its not all 'Self Serve' and since they make money doing it, it should be considered Professional Photocopying.... those employees DO have access to that private information. Why should they be excluded? The turnover in places like that can be very high.

Luckily in Alaska, Notaries are not permitted to 'certify' copies of anything ~ Items must be 'On Public Record' ( ie at the local or State Recorders Office) ~ a copy must be drawn by a Clerk and then that copy may be Certified to be a true copy..

Reply by John Schenk on 6/16/09 7:34pm
Msg #292480

I stated earlier in this thread that the ONLY way to get a definitive opinion is by writing the Attorney General's office and ask for one, which I still believe to be true. However, You must also consider that once the AG has written that opinion that it would begin to be enforced, or would at least be subject to enforcement, IF it was adverse to CA notaries, so that is also something to keep in mind.

JJ