Posted by Elizabeth Soliday on 5/28/09 3:36pm
Msg #290212

Can you tell when a .pdf doc was modified?

I am being accused again of papers "falling out" or "falling off" my loan doc package which DIDN'T happen. Mysteriously when I go to their website, the documents are now the top few pages of the .pdf file when they weren't there before. If it were my fault, I would gladly pay for overnight shipping back to them, but it's not. Because the docs were retrieved from their website, I have no proof unless you can answer my question????

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/09 3:42pm
Msg #290213

You can... so long as they didn't strip it out or falsify it by setting the date back on their computer when they crested the file. And some people aren't that smart.

I'm not sure if you can read it in Adobe reader... but you can in Regular Acrobat.

When the file is open, go to File > Properties...

Under the description tab should be A created and a modified date.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/28/09 4:08pm
Msg #290218

That works in Reader version 9, at least... Don't know about earlier versions.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 5/28/09 3:49pm
Msg #290214

Not much help now, but in the future

Download their PDF into a file onto your computer and print from there. This way you have a "record" of what you got and it alleviates the headaches.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/28/09 4:05pm
Msg #290217

Re: Not much help now, but in the future

Just know that no PDF file is going to be very helpful in this regard unless it has security features built in... and that vast majority do not. If I wanted to, I could edit just about all of the packages I get...change the dates it was created or modified... all of it. I wouldn't, of course... but I do know how to do it, and it's not difficult at all.

Honestly, I wish lenders would secure their PDFs. But they don't.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/28/09 11:07pm
Msg #290240

Philip is right.... and

keep the dang file 'til you get paid, at least. Nothing stops that stuff quicker'n sending it back to them. WE can't alter them!

Reply by PAW on 5/29/09 8:09am
Msg #290255

... not always true

>>> WE can't alter them! <<<

I alter PDF files all the time. All you need is the right software.

IMO, the only safe way to send this type of information from point "A" to point "B" is through encrypted and secure servers and connections. Some companies already do that (those you need to log onto their site and download from their severs to your PC).

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/29/09 8:40am
Msg #290258

I stand corrected by PAW & Marion, wondering tho'...

If you have the whole Adobe program, not just the Adobe Reader, ok, you can alter it. I get quite a few e-mailed docs that require a Password to open. Can those be altered also--with the full Adobe ( or another?) program?

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/29/09 8:42am
Msg #290259

Sorry.... it's Marian! n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/29/09 9:12am
Msg #290262

Lee, you are close enough to "right" to be right.

Anyone can alter anything with a copier or scanner, etc., not just loan docs. What you said is good 'nuf for a signing agent's primer.

Reply by PAW on 5/29/09 9:59am
Msg #290286

Re: I stand corrected by PAW & Marion, wondering tho'...

Yes. Soft passwords are easily broken. You can find all kinds of hacking software to crack passwords for many (if not all) applications. The only reliable safeguard on data is data encryption. And even at that, it's still possible to decrypt the data, given enough time and effort, but usually isn't worth the effort. Cracking soft passwords on personal and financial information files is worth the effort to many.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 5/29/09 3:35pm
Msg #290357

I'm not sure you can alter it, even with the full package

It's a scanned image, not a document that was created using Acrobat, so the individual elements that could be modified don't exist. That's why you can't search for specific words in these doc files when using Reader - there AREN'T any words, at least as far as the software is concerned - it's essentially a graphic.

I've modified PDF files before (using a less expensive alternative to Acrobat), but those were all either created in Word and converted, or created in Acrobat. Anything scanned was treated as one big graphic - nothing there to modify.

I'm not 100% sure of this since I do not have or use Acrobat, so if anyone has actually been able to modify a scanned loan package I will stand corrected...

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/29/09 9:56am
Msg #290283

Re: Not much help now, but in the future - agree Philip

It's not ever really about "proving" to the hiring entity that you didn't do whatever it was incorrectly, it's really about proving it to ourselves...that's the headache...second guessing oneself (IMHO). If the hiring entity WANTS to play fair, they will. If they are lying at the outset about documents then no amount of "proof" will change the situation and they will stick to their false story.

We can discuss messing around with PDFs til the cows come home but the reality is that what you and Lee state is the best practice that an NSA can do to protect themselves from dishonesty. The others may lie, but at least you know they are lying and don't doubt yourself. Write them off as liars.

I have (and use) all the bells and whistles of ScanSoft's PDF Converter Professional, and I have and use two different version of Adobe Acrobat (Standard and Professional). You can do anything to any PDF if you can open it. But, *you know* if you download it to your computer exactly what it was when you first received it. No question.