Posted by Larry/Ca on 10/20/09 5:48pm
Msg #307969

California acknowledgement question

I'm trying to figure out if I may fill out an acknowledgement today for a signature I witnessed last week. There was no indication that the signature needed notarized. I see that I must affix my seal when I fill out the acknowledgement but I don't see where I'm required to complete the acknowledgement within any particular time limit after witnessing the signature. I really don't want to take this document to be resigned if I don't have to since I witnessed the original signature.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/20/09 6:16pm
Msg #307983

First - this is an acknowledgment...

(Sorry, Notary 101 lecture warning!)

... and for Acks, you do NOT need to witness the signature. The Cert of Ack is simply you verifying the identity and signature of the signer. See pages 10-11 of the current handbook.

What you DO need to do is complete your journal entry, certificate and have the person sign your journal on the date that the acknowledgment certificate was issued. The date it was actually signed means nothing.

If you just issue a certificate without the signer in your presence... that's a no-no. The person must acknowledge to you that they signed it at the time the cert is issued. And, you need their ID to record it in your journal. So? Do you need to go back? Yes. Do they need to sign again? No.

HOWEVER... where is it that you know they need an Ack? Were you told that or did you just assume?

If they need to take an oath and you have to issue a jurat... that's different.

Either way, though... you can't just issue a certificate without a corresponding journal entry whereby the signer appeared to you in person on that date/time.

Reply by David Kruss on 10/20/09 7:08pm
Msg #308001

And don't forget that if the document to be notarized is a deed, quitclaim deed or deed to trust affecting real property or a power of attorney document, the notary public shall require the party signing the document to place his or her right thumbprint in the journal. (2009 CA notary Handbook, page 9)

Reply by Larry/Ca on 10/20/09 11:23pm
Msg #308048

The question is not whether you....

can you backdate, or complete an acknowledgment without the person appearing before you. But rather, can you complete an acknowledgment at home after the signing. I really can't find anything in notary law (California) that prohibits me from doing this. If the acknowledgment is dated the day the person appeared and signed the document and the journal entry contains all the required information what section in the law prohibits me from doing this?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/20/09 11:48pm
Msg #308049

I'm confused here...


You said, "I see that I must affix my seal when I fill out the acknowledgement but I don't see where I'm required to complete the acknowledgement within any particular time limit after witnessing the signature."

You complete the ack certificate when the signer appears, requests it and you make your journal entry. You do not have to witness the signature actually take place for an ack. The date on your acknowledgment certificate generally means nothing and does not relate to the date the person signed the document. All you care about it that person acknowledges that they executed. That's it.

You say you have a journal entry for this document. Why would you have a journal entry completed for a document that you ascertained did not need to be notarized? It makes no sense.

Reply by Larry/Ca on 10/21/09 12:42am
Msg #308052

Re: I'm confused here...

"You complete the ack certificate when the signer appears"
My question is what section of notary law says this.


"The date on your acknowledgment certificate generally means nothing"
The acknowledgment says that this is the date the signer personally appeared.


"Why would you have a journal entry...It makes no sense."
I wouldn't have an entry until I completed an acknowledgment. However, I was looking for language in notary law that would prohibit me from completing this at home. I have the signers name, address, ID and signature and diddos down for every document I notarized at the signing. Do I need to return to the borrowes house to complete this acknowledgment and make the entry in my journal?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/21/09 2:55am
Msg #308058

Re: I'm confused here...


=================
"You complete the ack certificate when the signer appears"
My question is what section of notary law says this.


"The date on your acknowledgment certificate generally means nothing"
The acknowledgment says that this is the date the signer personally appeared.
=================



Okay... per page 21 of the handbook:

---------------------------------------------------------------
Am I required to see the person sign the document at the time I perform the
notarization?

A. No. Not if you are preparing a certificate of acknowledgment. The document can be
executed before the person brings it to you for notarization. In an acknowledgment,
the signer must personally appear before you and acknowledge that the signer
executed the document, not that the signer executed the document in your presence.
---------------------------------------------------------------


The date on your ack certificate means nothing when compared to the date the document was signed. They do not have to be the same day. The date on your cert is the day that signer acknowledges to you that they signed the document as well as when they signed your journal.

Your signer did not sign the journal for *this* document, right? Therefore, the signer has not acknowledged to you that they signed it. It doesn't matter if you saw them sign it last week. This is an entirely NEW notarial act taking place on a different day and time. Remember, your jounral must be sequential. If you create a journal entry now for this new document... how are you going to get their signature in the journal for that entry? The only way to do that is to go back and get it.

IMO, if you fill out an ack cert without them appearing before you and acknowledging they signed a document (which includes signing a journal entry for said document), then you are perjuring yourself.

I know it seems ridiculous... but the simple facts of the matter are this:

1. You need to create a new, sequential journal entry for the new notarial act.
2. The signer must acknowledge they signed the document.
3. It doesn't matter that you witnessed them signing it. That's not what you're saying when you apply your seal. You're saying that they personally appeared and acknowledged executing the document. Those are two entirely different things.
4. If you fill out the ack cert with the day that they signed it, you would need to create a jounral entry with that same date. That would put your journal entries out of sequence.
5. Even if you did do #4, you still don't have a signature for said entry without the person personally appearing.

Now... if you're using the NotRot journal (MoJo), then you might have all of the documents consolidated in to one single journal entry. While I don't recommend that... I could see that one might easily "fib" there and be able to avoid returning to the client. I do not agree with this... but I can see how it would be nearly impossible to prove.

HOWEVER, you said, "I have the signers name, address, ID and signature and diddos down for every document I notarized at the signing."

That tells me you're using single entries per document... which is the better way to do things. Thing is, you can't ditto" a signature line... and if you did, that's a no-no. I know a lot of notaries do the diagonal line bit, but I'm not a fan of that practice, either. But, even if you did that... there's STILL no entry for this new document, and you still don't have the signer's signature in the journal for the new entry.

That's the issue... you need the signer's signature... and the only way to do that is to go back.

I know it's hassle... and I know that some notaries here likely disagree with me on this. But, there's just too much liability for us...especially CA notaries. And for me, if I start bending the rules or pushing the line, I'm putting my bond and my commission at risk and I just don't want to go there.

Far better that you just follow the law then risk being caught. Forging your certificate or journal will get your commission yanked and your butt thrown in jail.

I'm not being mean or anything... I'm just really concerned. This is one of those situations where you could bend a line "because it won't hurt anyone" - but what does it say about your integrity? Bending a little bit now will make it easier to bend a bit more a later and then the line gets blurred and you get in to all kinds of trouble. I wouldn't want that for you.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/21/09 12:47am
Msg #308053

Larry, check your PM n/m