Posted by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 5:43pm
Msg #309032

Everso "helpful" forms...

This form made me laugh today. I've got an appt to notarize a signature on one of these this evening.

http://www.ecy.wa.gov/pubs/ecy02009.pdf


I love the big circle with the NOTARIZE HERE ... blocking any spare space I might have had to use.

People who design these forms need to bopped with clue stick.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 5:45pm
Msg #309034

Also, not there's no actual signature?? Good golly. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 10/28/09 5:45pm
Msg #309035

No signature line in the notarial cert. either. LOL

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 5:46pm
Msg #309037

I know, right??? What a mess.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/28/09 5:59pm
Msg #309039

You have the option to attach a loose certificate in CA, right?

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/28/09 6:15pm
Msg #309041

<<<You have the option to attach a loose certificate in CA, right?>>>

Yes, a loose cert jurat is in order....it's not only missing the signature line, but it's missing the venue and a place for the affiant's name to be printed and the "proved to me on the basis....." statement. There's no place for a seal imprint as we cannot stamp over writing of any kind. I do understand Marian frustration - on some forms, even when the Ack or Jurat wording is complaint with CA, the ONLY place to put a seal imprint has "PLACE notary stamp HERE" right in the middle! Yeah, clue stick beatings are certainly called for!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 7:57pm
Msg #309055

Yup... in this case, a loose form is the only answer... and giving the person the choice between signing his name somewhere on the form or filling out a generic sworn statement form that I carry around. I've found that to be very helpful in situations like this.

And when I say generic, I mean it. It's just a form that asks for the name of the document in question, and then a short statements that they are swearing/affirming to the contents. After I go through my (now very well memorized) little speech about California notary law and me not being a lawyer, I give them some options for how to handle the situation. I always give them the choice of several options making sure they know that it's up to them, and I can't guarantee their choice will be acceptable to the document receiver.

More often than not, they choose to fill out the generic form that I can then notarize and we're good to go.

The general public just doesn't understand what we do, and I try to make sure that before I'm done with them, they understand what they're paying for. I feel it's part of my duty. They may not care.. most of them are already irritated that I'm charging them for a rubber stamp... but I make sure they understand the significance of the seal.

Reply by ikando on 10/29/09 4:27pm
Msg #309188

I never cease to be amazed at the lack of information the general public has about what a notary does, but the most surprising is the number of attorneys I work with who don't seem to have a clue either.

And now it's even more frustrating because there are so many newbies in the area. Oklahoma has no good information easily available to let the new notary know what is expected of them. I went to the actual statutes to learn my duties and responsibilities. Few of the new notaries I've run into even know that the functions are in the Oklahoma Statutes. So is it any wonder they're clueless.

Reply by CF on 10/28/09 8:00pm
Msg #309057

So here is a situation....a 401K company had a form in bad shape, as this one attached. I suggested that it needed a loose attached to it. The company instructed me to only add my stamp and do nothing else to the form or it would not be valid in thier system. As far as I concerned, it was not properly notarized, but the company said it was proper per their system. I never signed it-only stamped it. I got in writing...how they wanted it. What would you have done?

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/28/09 8:09pm
Msg #309061

<<<So here is a situation....a 401K company had a form in bad shape, as this one attached. I suggested that it needed a loose attached to it. The company instructed me to only add my stamp and do nothing else to the form or it would not be valid in thier system. As far as I concerned, it was not properly notarized, but the company said it was proper per their system. I never signed it-only stamped it. I got in writing...how they wanted it. What would you have done?>>>

In CA, it is ILLEGAL (per the SOS) for the Notary to stamp their seal without notarial wording for the purpose of notarizing a signature. I would have told the 401K company NO, what's okay for "their system" is NOT okay with the CA SOS.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 8:10pm
Msg #309062

What would I have done??

I would have told them that "their" system doesn't call the shots. This is for CA... but I would have told them that they were asking me to do something illegal by California law, and I would give them the code if they wanted it, adding that if they asked me again they'd be in violation of the law themselves and I would report them to the Secretary of State.

I don't know about Michigan, but in CA, if we just put our seal on a document without the proper certificate and signature -- we're in BIG trouble. That could mean fines, revocation of our commission, possibly even prison depending on the circumstances.

Nope... not gonna chance that one. The only organization that can dictate how I notarize is the Secretary of State.

Reply by CF on 10/28/09 8:18pm
Msg #309067

I really do not know....it could be an issue for Michigan too. Not that I am worried about it b/c I do not think that it is illegal here. It happened about 4 years ago and I have never heard anything back from it. It was not going to be filed....so I do not know how the SOS would know??? I just thought to myself...that it was a joke. They got what they asked for.

Reply by CF on 10/28/09 8:26pm
Msg #309070

I think that I am in the clear...

taken from the website:

"A notary public is not liable for the truth, form or contents of a record that he or she notarizes. "

Like I said previously, I was not really worried.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/28/09 8:45pm
Msg #309071

Re: I think that I am in the clear...

Well... no, you're not responsible for the contents, but you are responsible for the notarial certificate. The document and the certificate (which includes your seal) may or may not be on the same piece of paper... but they two different documents or items.

Since Michigan doesn't actually require the stamp or seal... then yeah... you're likely fine... in other words, there was no notarization at all.

If they did that to me, I'd be all over them on it. I think most CA notaries would, as well. Well, the good ones anyway.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/29/09 4:28am
Msg #309088

Not exactly in the clear

It's quite clear in the statutes - your signature must accompany your notarization, whether you stamp or hand-write the required information. The stamp itself isn't required, but the signature and info is.

Basing a decision by the criteria of whether or not you'll get caught might not be the best method, but maybe that's just me.

The statute (NP Act 238 of 2003) section 55.291 (prohibited acts) addressing this:

(1) A notary public shall place his or her signature on every record upon which he or she performs a notarial act. The notary public shall sign his or her name exactly as his or her name appears on his or her application for commission as a notary public.

(2) On each record that a notary public performs a notarial act and immediately near the notary public's signature, as is practical, the notary public shall print, type, stamp, or otherwise imprint mechanically or electronically sufficiently clear and legible to be read by the secretary and in a manner capable of photographic reproduction all of the following in this format or in a similar format that conveys all of the same information:

Reply by CF on 10/29/09 7:30am
Msg #309094

Renee I NEVER made a decision based on getting caught

or not! Are you an attorney? Are any of the other "right fighters" on this board an attorney? Yeah...that is what I thought- none of you are. Therefore, it is not up to your interpretation of the notarial law.

I am in NO WAY out of bounds.

The liability of the document does not fall on me. If they feel that it is notarized to their standard- then that is all that matters. The person appeared and signed it and I stamped it.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/29/09 7:46am
Msg #309095

Nope, not an attorney - yep, a "right fighter"

“A notary public shall place his or her signature on every record upon which he or she performs a notarial act.”

It’s really not open to a whole lot of interpretation, is it?

You said, of what you chose to do:

“As far as I concerned, it was not properly notarized…”
“I never signed it-only stamped it …”
AND
“It was not going to be filed....so I do not know how the SOS would know?”

You thought you were doing something incorrectly, but you weren’t worried about it AND the SOS wasn’t likely to find out.

How did I misinterpret that? This is basic stuff, CF - nothing personal, but purely professional. How 'they' feel about something being properly notarized is NOT all that matters - in fact, that's the LEAST thing that matters.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/09 8:49am
Msg #309099

It's very clear

A notarial act without your signature isn't a notarial act at all. The statute isn't open to interpretation and to me that's just notary 101 stuff.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/29/09 10:16am
Msg #309110

Re: It's very clear...which would mean....

and correct me if I'm wrong, but in that case the stamp shouldn't be applied...period...

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/29/09 7:53pm
Msg #309230

Re: It's very clear...which would mean....

Correct, not if you're performing a notarial act. Now what it doesn't talk about it using your stamp for something other than a notarial act. For instance, there are a few lenders (Quicken is one that immediately comes to mind) that ask you to place your stamp on their customer i.d. form. It says something like "notary stamp here as proof of commission." That's clearly not for the purpose of a notarial act so that may be a gray area.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/30/09 9:36am
Msg #309258

Re: It's very clear...which would mean....

No gray area here in FL - no notarial act = no stamp..

On those ID Verification Forms, or anything else that requires my signature other than in a notary certificate (like Address Certifications) I sign as Signing Agent, not Notary Public...no stamp. Haven't had one kicked back yet either - yet...<G>.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/29/09 12:45am
Msg #309085

Pet peeve of mine, too! And another "clue stick" needed...

Yes!! Hate that... As if we didn't know that we were supposed to add our stamp or where to put it! I always say that it seems that the people who design these forms never have to use them. [And I love the "clue stick" statement! I'm going to have to borrow that one.]

Another pet peeve along the same lines are certificate forms where they are apparently set up to pre-fill the dates, but don't do it, so you only have two spaces where you're supposed to write in the whole date.

On another clue stick-related note, tonight I did a re-sign for a Provident loan that was first signed several days ago. The other notary must have been in serious need of a clue stick. First, she didn't know what the date was, asked the borrowers who asked their kid, and - you guessed it - they got it wrong. Also, she had them date EVERY document in the package. I was scratching my head about that one until I got back to my office and reread the instructions from the ss that said: "Have the borrowers date everything themselves". Oy Vey!! She sure had them date everything, all right! I'd have a good laugh over that if it wasn't so sad. Clearly no clue... I felt bad for the borrowers who had to go through all of this twice.

On top of all of that, there was also a Grant Deed in the package that didn't have any signature lines. At least that one was easily fixed.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/29/09 2:36am
Msg #309087

Please read message by Renee/M: 308541 (Some great points!) n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/29/09 4:31am
Msg #309089

=) Thanks! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 10/29/09 7:24am
Msg #309093

Re: Pet peeve of mine, too! And another "clue stick" needed...

"Another pet peeve along the same lines are certificate forms where they are apparently set up to pre-fill the dates, but don't do it, so you only have two spaces where you're supposed to write in the whole date."

Got no spaces for date on my form last night - that is always fun too! I could be jealous!