Posted by LC/AZ on 10/8/09 11:05pm
Msg #306784

I need a little moral support from my fellow notaries.......

I was just thrown out of a house for trying to, properly, do my job. Name of docs had wife's middle initial; driver's license only had first and last name. No passport for backup. Told her about the 'less, but not more' rule. She screamed at me that she is a notary, too, and that I'm just witnessing her signature. Fine, if lender wants me there to witness her signature on the non-notarized docs, sure, I can accommodate but, I doubt it. Then, I called the signing service and HE AGREED WITH HER! He told me he had been doing this for 5 years and I was there just to witness the signature. I told him I've been doing this longer than he, and that I am, first and foremost, there to properly id the person signing the docs! Why bothering using a notary if I'm there to just watch her sign docs? She told me I would not have a job tomorrow and I will be losing my commission. I said, "Ma-am, call the Secretary of State tomorrow and, I believe, they will back me. I am so mad. I traveled 28 miles and I know the signing service won't pay the agreed upon fee of $125. Well, thanks all, for listening; I just needed to vent!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/8/09 11:32pm
Msg #306785

Anybody can witness a signature but our first job is to identify the person before us, and you could not do that because the docs introduced a name for which she had no acceptable ID. Sounds like you ran into a complete psycho. And the SS doesn't sound far behind. Yes, it is highly unlikely you'll see any $$ for this. What will probably happen is the SS will send out some bozo notary and get the docs signed and that'll be the end of it. She will not be calling the SOS to get your commission revoked - but I would be sure, just in case, because if she lodges any formal allegations against you - even though they're full of hot air - you might not want to let her get away with it. Anyway, we've all been there, done that. (At least I have.) And we all sympathize with you. So have a nice glass of wine - or a slice of chocolate cake - or both and try to fuggettaboutit. You don't need to work for a SS like that. The last time I had a similar ID issue, the SS totally stuck up for me and the docs were redrawn. Also, in CA we have the credible identifying witness route we can use in a pinch, but I don't know what AZ law is. And how many notaries have we run into who have no idea what they're doing ... try to let it go.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/8/09 11:48pm
Msg #306787

So, she is Alice Jones and her mother may be Alice T. Jones - how are you to know the difference? And mom just may be the owner from when she was married to the mr. You could have been at a Jerry Springer type household - who knows these days. Or a credible witness - how would they know? She, of all people, should know the importance of ID.

At the least, trip and print fee is owed you. It wasn't you who was non-performing.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/9/09 12:04am
Msg #306789

Agree with Julie, ask for trip & print. Call SOS also and

ask if you can file a grievance or make a statement or something prior to her (if she were really to do so), and let them know that you were doing the lawful thing, but two other notaries did not think so and you were there with their permission. Maybe they will look into her notary background and leave you alone.

Rant was required from you, so no problem...enjoy the cake and wine and .....

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/9/09 12:44am
Msg #306792

Thanks, to all...........

It's 10:35 pm AZ time, and I can't sleep because of tonight's incident. You've, all, made me feel better, though. And, something, I forgot to mention; When I got the docs, I called and asked the husband what, exactly, the names on the licenses were, so that I could compare them. I spelled out each name to him on the phone, and he concurred that those were the exact names on the licenses. This lady called my husband, while I was still enroute to my house, and wanted to know who my employer was. I feel really sad that the signing service did not back me. I wanted to tell him he shouldn't be operating a business that involves notaries, if he himself, doesn't know notarial law!

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/9/09 12:57am
Msg #306793

Oh, by the way, I have a friend in Phoenix...........

Her name is Jane Doe and her daughter's name is Jane Doe, (of course, not real names) but the middle names are different. True story. This is why it's so important to properly identify a person.

Reply by PAW on 10/9/09 6:48am
Msg #306805

When verifying ID over the phone ...

... always have the borrowers read the names to you. Don't offer the names as shown on the documents because too many will just agree with what you say. As you found out, the names didn't match. Had the borrower provided their name from the ID to you, you may have avoided the situation with the borrower. Though I don't think it would have made any difference to the signing service.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/9/09 3:28am
Msg #306802

She and ss forgot a major detail...

You are not there to just witness a signature -- you're there to witness the signature of the actual person who is named in the documents. And if you can't prove it's the same person, then you're done, as you well know.

You mentioned below about a mother/daughter with the same name. I once met a guy to married a woman with the same first name as his sister, so they now both have the same name (except for middle initial). And I've heard of other similar situations.

I think that sometimes the people who protest the most are the ones who have something to hide. You may have just prevented some fraud from taking place. Or it could just be that she knew she didn't have her full name on her ID and didn't want to be bothered fixing it - or figured she could browbeat you into submission. I hope she loses her commission!

"Why bothering using a notary if I'm there to just watch her sign docs?" Exactly!!!!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/9/09 6:32am
Msg #306804

Vent away!! You did the right thing. Which SS was it?

I remember reading on the forums (could have been this one) a few years ago. Young man, with same name as his father, got a loan against fathers house, his parents were out of the country and he thought he could get the money and be able to pay off the loan before his parents came back. Notary notarized his signature (I can't remember if he had a Jr on his ID or not).
Maybe someone on here will remember the incident. I think it was in California.

Reply by Cari on 10/9/09 6:56am
Msg #306807

Yes, please list the SS! n/m

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/9/09 7:37am
Msg #306810

Re: Yes, please list the SS!

I will PM anyone who wishes to have the name of the signing service. I feel he acted very unprofessional and I couldn't believe he would instruct me to break the law, just to get the documents signed. She was screaming at me to, "GET OUT OF HER HOUSE" and to, "LEAVE NOW!" He's yelling at me that, "I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS DOING!" She said, "YOU WON'T HAVE A JOB TOMORROW!" It was, all, very traumatic. Oh well, as Scarlet would say, "Tomorrow's another day!"

Reply by desktopfull on 10/9/09 10:14am
Msg #306819

That was one of my closings a couple of years ago Sylvia. n/m

Reply by Cari on 10/9/09 6:52am
Msg #306806

I support you LC/AZ! I was thrown out from a home

last year in the middle of winter because the BO's Middle name was NOT on her docs, as it was on her ID. Man I remember it so clearly, still gives me the shivers. She was so pissed with her lender & TC. She was blabbing about how there's another woman on her block with the same name, and she gets her mail all the time, bla bla bla. Then she added that she was the Queen of her castle no King, she did THIS all by herself, she bought her home, bla bla bla...and that she demanded me to leave and do not come back until the docs were corrected before she signed, bla bla bla. Now she was saying all of this while she escorted me out her front door, slammed open her screen door (9pm at night) in a really bad Chicago suburb, AND three thuggish looking dudes walking real slow in the middle of the street, got right in front of my car, by the time I reached it, and asking me how much money I had on me...me on the phone with husband, sweating bullets - I got in my car so vast it was a world record I tell you...I couldn't even tell the BO that I had nothing to do with the docs!

I FEEL YOUR PAIN...I did get paid though for a "no-sign" and so should you, if they have that policy, and if they don't FIGHT FOR IT! You deserve it...NO ONE should be treated with disrespect no matter what profession they are in!

Reply by JanetLA on 10/9/09 7:48am
Msg #306811

You did the right thing. I have the same first and last name

as my ex sister-in-law. She has a middle name that is different, and I have a maiden name, but I would be unhappy if someone used first and last only and allowed her to sign for me...

Reply by JulieD/KS on 10/11/09 11:04am
Msg #306995

KEEP NOTES!

I had a similar situation a couple of years ago. Name on docs "JANE M. DOE" (fake name) an name on driver's license "MAGGIE DOE" The lady handed me a AAA card with the name "MAGGIE DOE" and I told her I couldn't accept that as ID.

The lady was verbally abusive to me and also threatened me (she was going to hire a lawyer, sue me, take my commission, blah blah blah). Sweet talk doesn't work with me and I would not notarize. She abused me further on the phone for the next few days. She finally went and got proper ID and I went back three days later and proceeded with the signing. I took my daughter along just so if I was murdered by this crazy lady, someone would notice me missing right away!

I documented EVERYTHING. I have five pages of type-written notes about everything that had happened. I did finally get paid (the SS backed me up...but still took over 60 days to pay for my 2 trips. The SS was 24/7 NNN).

So, while fresh in your mind, write EVERYTHING down that you can remember. Save all emails regarding this event. Staple it to your confirmation. Document Document Document.

Reply by A S Johnson on 10/9/09 9:18am
Msg #306814

Why not post the SS so we all can know who this is.
When I post negatives I post who ut is so we all are aware of them.

Reply by A S Johnson on 10/9/09 9:22am
Msg #306815

I back up my above post with this post of a couple days ago in reference to Sunt Signing post they were being "miss treated".

Sunset Signing,
I went back to my post of several days ago and noticed you posted, late as usual, I could/should have put "RUSH" in my messages to you. OH! Thats good to know 90 days later.
As I posted, if you haven't, you WILL be in reciept of a DEMAND letter from "The Law Offices of Gavin N Lewis" was mailed 10/6/09.
Your reaction to me and you post above has netted you complaints in Texass to our SOS (who won't do "didly" and our Att'y General (who we are making head way to protect our Texas Notaries from those who are take advantage of us by those from out of state).
I am having Gavin froward copies of his demand letter with cover letter to your CA SOS and Att'y General, the involved lender, title, escrow cos and the FL SOS and Att'y General because the involved property was in FL.
SIR:
Telling me to put "rush" in my message after 90 days is an insult.
In your above post about times being hard as a reason to be late in your payment to your Notaries is beyound insult. You got paid. You shoud have paid you Notary contractors with in 30 days if not sooner.
You Sir: You use my/our money to maintain your "left coast" lifestyle at our expense. Pay up DEADBEAT.
For your info. I and my wife operate several small business from store front retail to other service type business. My suppliers demand thier payment within reason. And the companies who contract for our services pay within 30 days of services rendered. Our contracters get paid in thier established pay times (never more than 30 days).
It"s called, "TCB, Taking Care of Business".
By the way, of all the Title/Escrow cos and SS I work with, this is the !st time in 2 years I have had to ask Gavin to produce a Demand letter. Durning this year I still am getting around 20 signing a month. You sir is the only one who has gone beyound 60 days. Your sir is the only operation who I have not been able to call on the phone ang through to some one to find out why I am not getting paid.
An Aside to ALL Notaries: This is a reason I don't sign contracts with "Non-compete" clauses, a letter to the lender/title/escrow co about the problems with the SS could be considered a "breach" and the SS could sue. It"s the old saw, it isn't the person who started the fight with the 1st blow, it's the one who through the last blow that was witnessed the gets charged with assult.
Enough!

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/9/09 9:33am
Msg #306816

I feel it is better to PM the info than, post it publicly...

Although, I will be rating them in Signing Central.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/9/09 9:34am
Msg #306817

You did the right thing...I had something similar only it was "Christian name vs given name" with ID (Drivers license) being a combination of the two. Passport different variation of previous mentioned combo. Title gave one answer, lender another answer and SS a third answer on what to do. No two creditable witnesses available....Since it was a Refi I asked if the original deed was avail, he produced it, that provided my answer. Title blew it, lender blew it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/9/09 1:20pm
Msg #306829

<<<I was just thrown out of a house for trying to, properly, do my job. Name of docs had wife's middle initial; driver's license only had first and last name. No passport for backup. Told her about the 'less, but not more' rule. She screamed at me that she is a notary, too, and that I'm just witnessing her signature.>>>

I would have used psychology: Some spiel regarding "for your protection", yada, yada....."in this day of rampant identity theft, just want to be extra cautious on YOUR behalf", yada, yada....."Minnie Mouse on ID and Minnie E. Mouse on paperwork are viewed by the AZ SOS as two different people......" yada yada.....and more "I go to great lengths to PROTECT client's identity......for your protection" yada yada......"I AGREE WITH YOU, it is a SILLY rule, BUT.....

99% of the time, anger will be diffused when you can convince borrowers you are on THEIR side......

Reply by janCA on 10/9/09 1:54pm
Msg #306830

No CW's could be used here in CA

You were presented with an ID with no middle initial. That is considered "satisfactory evidence". One can only use CW's when there is the "absence" of that evidence, information or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and paper identification documents. This is quoted from the CA handbook. Many SA's believe you can still use CW's in this case, I don't and never will if there is ID that is not consistent with the documents. This woman overreacted, I believe she was definitely hiding something. The SS evidently is clueness when it comes to ID issues. It wouldn't be their butt on the line if this turned out to be fraud. Try to shake this off. You did the right thing in a very bad situation. Bravo to you!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/9/09 3:39pm
Msg #306839

Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

there is a distinction between an ID not QUITE matching dox and attempted fraud.
If permitted by applicable law, a dose of common sense can be utilized.
Remember, the goal is to determine if the person in front of you is the individual
who is on the title and who the lender intends to be the borrower. It is not a contest if
their ID is "properly" issued.
Is the address on the ID the same as the PIQ.? Do they have additonal identification.
Are there wedding pictures displayed showing them. ? Do the kids call her Mommy?
And whatever else you can dream up utilizing your experience and common sense.
Our job is to (subject, of course, to applicable law) get the dox signed by the proper parties.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/9/09 4:52pm
Msg #306844

Re: Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

I really agree with Bob on this one. You need to think about this. We are going to someone's home, where they clearly reside, have gone through an extensive application process, etc.
It's not like someone approaching you on the street for a notarization out of the blue. I personally don't hassle the borrowers about issues like this, and make sure any variations are covered on the name/signature affidavit. IMHO if the name, as it appears on the D/L or other ID is listed on that, I am covered. We are notaries & IMO some take this way too literally. I'm not talking about notary negligence or careless here, either.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/9/09 5:05pm
Msg #306854

Gonna disagree here...

"I personally don't hassle the borrowers about issues like this, and make sure any variations are covered on the name/signature affidavit. IMHO if the name, as it appears on the D/L or other ID is listed on that, I am covered"

If name on ID has less than what's on docs, there's no way the Signature/Name Affidavit is sufficient for me to make an identification - for crying out loud, the person him/herself is signing off that all names are one and the same...like Bob said, it IS state-specific, but I'm not sure there's ANY state that will say "sure, the signer's sworn statement that they are who they say they are is sufficient for ID purposes...no problem!"....

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/9/09 5:09pm
Msg #306857

Ugh..hit enter too soon...

By the way..the Signature/Name Affidavit is notarized...how do you do that if you don't have ID to cover the name they're signing with?

Think I'm done now...

.ohh...no....

JMHO

Now I'm done....

Reply by MW/VA on 10/9/09 5:09pm
Msg #306856

Re: Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

Because in VA the drivers license will usually contain a person's full name--first, middle & last.
Their name, as it is on title, would almost NEVER be that way.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/9/09 5:15pm
Msg #306860

Re: Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

Doesn't matter Marilynn...the point is you said you're covered if the name is listed on the Signature/Name Affidavit (IOW you consider it an acceptable form of ID) and, IMO, this document is NOT an acceptable form of ID.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/9/09 5:23pm
Msg #306863

Re: Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

Virginia law states that I have to be satisfied as to the identity of the person, period. It does not say the ID has to match the documents exactly. That's the only point I was trying to make.
It is a state specific issue.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/9/09 10:23pm
Msg #306905

Re: Not suggesting that anyone violate their State's laws, BUT

I think you have a point. In this type of situation, I certainly wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and accept the ID as is, but if they could show me something else to corroborate the middle initial to a level that I'd feel comfortable with, I'd consider it, and have done so. However, that would only be in the "absence of other information" that provides doubt.

In my state, at least, the law states what kind of ID is considered acceptable, but not how to interpret what we see. The "less not more rule" is a good guideline, but is not encoded in law that I know of. That doesn't lessen the need to be reasonably sure that you have the right person in front of you about to sign the docs. And that's a call that only the notary can make in any given situation.

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/9/09 10:28pm
Msg #306906

I didn't think..........

We could use a combination of ids to verify identity? Anyway, just got back from one of the nicest closings I've had in a long time. Sure made up for last night!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/9/09 11:23pm
Msg #306908

Re: I didn't think..........

"We could use a combination of ids to verify identity?"

What does your state law say about IDs? That's the critical issue.

My state doesn't say that you can use multiple IDs, it says the ID should meet set qualifications in order to be considered acceptable, and that there should be an absence of information to the contrary. So when I'm looking for corroborating evidence, I have that in mind. I'm not looking for a combination -- anything that's wrong on the original and we're done -- just something to provide me with a significant comfort level (see Bob's list) to convince me to use the one ID they are presenting, which is what I will enter in my journal as provided ID. Anything else will go in the notes section only.

I think it can be argued that some of this is a bit of a gray area, but the key thing is that you feel confident that you have the right person in front of you. You also have to keep in mind what the lender will think about it. In the past, they just wanted someone who fogged a mirror, but things have changed (I hope).

Having said all that, I vaguely recall also turning someone down in basically the same situation as yours when they couldn't provide any further support. Sometimes it's just a gut feeling, too. In some situations, I wouldn't even consider mentioning any other options, just because of the vibe I get. If someone came on like gangbusters like your borrowers, I think I'd be inclined to pack my bags, too.

Glad you had a better experience today!

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/10/09 12:17am
Msg #306909

Typical situation. John H Jones and Suzi L Jones, H & W own

a house, titled as above. IDs read that way
Want to re-fi. Call lender. Takes app over phone. Processor doing app, per
his script. What are your full names. John Harry Jones and Suzi Lisa Jones..
Five months later after J & S fax a jillion dox, including some 3 x each get approved.
Get call, we are ready , need to close tonite as we can only hold low rate to end of month and this is EOM day
Processor makes up dox in full names.
Notary assigned is in a state that does not require exact match on ID, but Notary has
read on notrot or maybe took a notay class that taught , something like, " Less is more. or more is less or something. like that. Notary not quite sure.
Notary shows up. Says to j & s. "Ooops, your IDs do not match your name. Bye, Bye... j & s get a bit upset.
Again, follow your state's laws, but use your head.

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/10/09 12:33am
Msg #306913

I guess I'm being extra careful these days because..........

Some borrowers will try anything to get out their adjustable rate, interest only, balloon, whatever loans, because they don't like the terms, to which, they agreed. I don't want to be the notary in court, with the borrowers accusing the notary of not properly identifying them, and therefore, grounds for possible invalidation of their contract. A little far fetched, I know, but, as I have given in a previous example, my friend in Phoenix and her daughter (she's 28 and unmarried) have the same first and last name, but middle names are different. Now, what if........... well, you be the judge.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/10/09 8:47am
Msg #306921

Re: I guess I'm being extra careful these days because..........

"borrowers accusing the notary of not properly identifying them, and therefore, grounds for possible invalidation of their contract"

HUH???
1 > Bwr, "I'm really me , but the NP didn't jump thru the right hoops to proove that I'm
me , so I don't owe the $$"

2"I 'm not me, but I fooled the NP as to who I was. So slap the cuffs on me, but
I'll take the NP down with me. "

Can't cite any facts, but I would guess that the vast majority of loan fraud involving
imposter borrowers, included a criminally complicit NP who was in on the scam and
profited from it.

For someone to set up a imposter scam , jump thru all the loan app hoops,
get access to bwr house. not really know how dox will be drawn until they see
them at closing, and hope to fool the NP with a "close" ID is REALLY quite a stretch.
Have a great weekend , all.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/10/09 10:05am
Msg #306929

Re: I guess I'm being extra careful these days because..........

Yes, IMO there's a lot of NNA inspired notary paranoia around.

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/10/09 10:13am
Msg #306930

Touche' guys; I guess you're right..........

Bob, when you present those scenarios, it does seem silly on my part.

Reply by Les_CO on 10/10/09 11:56am
Msg #306940

Re: Touche' guys; I guess you're right..........

My question would be “Was it her?” If the ID had a photo, and a signature on it…did it look like the borrower? Did the signatures match? If I recall correctly AZ Driver License have both. If I thought it was her, I’d have done the signing

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/10/09 12:30pm
Msg #306942

And one more thang

If the signer is a borrower, you can check the 1003 for DOB, to compare to the D/L.
Certainly this is not a determining factor, but one factor of several when ID's don't "match"
name on docs.
Had one once where John Doe JR. & SR got together, and decided it would be easier to have JR sign for him. Docs read John Doe, ID read John Doe, Jr.
Curious and in fear of my life from the notary police, I checked the 1003 and found the applicant's DOB on the 1003 differed from the ID's DOB.
SS knew what was going on, didn't think it was a "big deal", but title sure did.

Yes, they started calling me direct and dumped the SS.

Reply by BlkEagle/NC on 10/10/09 4:50pm
Msg #306950

Re: Touche' guys; I guess you're right..........

I think MW/VA, Bob and Les/AZ are right on. I would have done signing after comparing the drivers license to 1003.

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/10/09 6:42pm
Msg #306954

Yes, the photo on the DL was her........

There's no photo on the docs, so looking at the photo on the license doesn't tell me anything. Anyway, isn't my prerogative, as a notary, to accept or deny if I'm uncomfortable with the id that's presented to me? I, probably, would have worked with her in some way, but she went nuts right off the bat and told me to get out. I wish I would have thought to look at the 1003. Oh well, next time.......

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/11/09 2:16am
Msg #306964

Re: I guess I'm being extra careful these days because..........

"For someone to set up a imposter scam , jump thru all the loan app hoops,
get access to bwr house. not really know how dox will be drawn until they see
them at closing, and hope to fool the NP with a "close" ID is REALLY quite a stretch."


While that makes a lot of sense, I did some notary work for a paralegal once who told me about a case her office was prosecuting at the time where something very much like that actually happened. I don't know if the notary was incompetent or if the co-borrower had a fake ID, but it turned out the co-borrower was NOT the person named in the documents. The deception was discovered two years later and she was identified by the thumbprint in the notary's journal. (At least the notary got THAT part right!)

We've all heard the bit about truth being stranger than fiction... but I agree it's not terribly likely. I've also heard, though, that fraud happens most often within families. Ya just never know.

Reply by LC/AZ on 10/11/09 8:46am
Msg #306976

Thanks, Janet..........

Your story helps to affirm that, while, granted, it is rare, fraud, (especially with family members), can happen.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/10/09 2:21pm
Msg #306943

Bob, I have always agreed with you on this.

All of the comments you have made in this thread are accurate imho.