Posted by Sandra Christian on 10/30/09 4:55pm
Msg #309332
Notarizing a document to receive an apostille
I have never done this so need some feedback. Got a call from a company that needs to send a Certificate of Free Sale in to the SOS to get an apostille. How do I notarize the document?
| Reply by PAW on 10/30/09 5:19pm
Msg #309334
If there is no notary certificate on the document, you need to be told what type of notarization is required for the document, an acknowledgment or a jurat. The signer of the document needs to tell you what they want or need. You can explain the types of notarizations that are available, taking an acknowledgment or administering an oath, the purpose of each one and then the signer needs to make the decision. Once you are told, you perform the appropriate notarial act and complete the appropriate certificate.
| Reply by PAW on 10/30/09 5:28pm
Msg #309337
Forgot to add ...
It doesn't make any difference what the signer or document custodian intends to do with the document. So it doesn't matter that it's for a sale and needs an Apostille.
| Reply by Sandra Christian on 10/30/09 5:56pm
Msg #309344
Thanks for the input. That's what I thought. My question was based on the fact that the document is a Certificate of Free sale for their product and didn't have a signature that I was notarizing so didn't know what I was supposed to notarize. I can ask them if they know what kind of form they need. I figure it's a jurat but won't tell them. They may have to call their lawyer.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/30/09 5:44pm
Msg #309342
If you call the SOS phone number, hit 4 (I think) for the notary division, I believe there is another menu option that explains what is required for someone to get an Apostille. Your client may already know what it takes if it's done this before. If not, what I usually do is refer them to that number (which I keep stored in my cell) for further information. I mention this only because I think the information that is given there is useful for us to understand the process. [It's been a long time since I've had reason to call that number, BYW, so I don't know if anything has changed.]
Like Paul said, the notarization is no different than you would do any other notarization. As I understand it, the Apostille is just a confirmation from the appropriate government entity that you are in fact a duly commissioned notary public in your jurisdiction.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/30/09 5:48pm
Msg #309343
Aside from the Paul mentioned above... the Apostille process is both easy and complicated depending on the situation. There are actually several ways to go about it. The apostille process is basically just a daisy chain of signature authentications... and the type of chain depends on where the document is destined. In some cases it can stop at the SOS, in others it has to go to Washington DC and then an embassy. It's really just a exercise in signature authentication that takes for ever because of document travel time. Apostilles can cost hundreds of dollars or more if you're in a real hurry.
But you need to know what exactly it is you're being asked to notarize and where it's going if you're going to mess with the Apostille. If you're just being asked to notarize something that they will then deal with the apostille... then you do what Paul said -- and treat like any other notarization.
If they want you to notarize and then go get the apostille... you can do that if you have the resources, or you can mail it to the SOS... but then so can they. Honestly, if you've never done it before... I'd suggest you refer them to an apostille service. It's not a terribly complicated process.... it just seems that way. It's really pretty straightforward... just annoying is all.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/30/09 6:26pm
Msg #309351
Marian's post reminded me of something else I ran into a few years back. A couple was in the process of trying to adopt a child from China (I think) and needed an Apostille for a doc that they had to get notarized. They also mentioned a requirement that the notary's commission had to still be valid for at least a year from the signature date for the requirements of the recipients of the documents. It's not something I'd ever heard of before but I thought worth knowing about.
| Reply by PAW on 10/30/09 6:43pm
Msg #309355
As Marian said, the process can range from the very simple to very time consuming, complex and frustrating exercise in patience. A majority of my notary business right now is Apostille, document authentication and embassy legalization processing. It isn't hard to do, but you do need to know exactly what you are doing and the correct contacts and mailing addresses to do the job correctly. There are many companies out there that do all the leg work and have been at it for some time now.
From the original post, I gathered that the document custodian will be doing their own processing and therefore only needed a notary certificate. However, if the document has no signatures, there can not be any notarization. The document custodian would have to sign some statement of intent, facts or whatever, and sign the document before a notarization could even take place.
Fortunately for me, in Florida, we're allowed to make attested copies of documents. So our certification of the copy is sufficient for many documents being processed for use in foreign countries. Unfortunately for you, that option is not available to CA notaries.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 10/30/09 9:37pm
Msg #309374
A word about embossers and apostilles...
Just tacking this on as an afterthought.
I think that it helps to use an embossed seal on a document which is going to receive an apostille if the notary knows ahead of time. When documents go out of the country sometimes the recipients in the other country appreciate receiving a notary's raised seal. (So I have been told by clients who had lived in other countries and were sending documents back there.)
For those who are new to the notary world, when using an embosser alone you should make sure your raised imprint is darkened somehow in order to show the lettering on it. That may be overstating the obvious; but, for what it's worth the words/information on the notary's seal must be clearly visible and not just a raised area which cannot be seen, rather than felt, and it should be able to be copied easily on a copier/scanner. Some who use embossers will ONLY emboss and then use the side of a pencil lead to shade the raised letters. There are also stamp pad devices to shade the raised letters but I have never used one.
I personally use an inked seal (the regular rubber stamp kind) and then emboss over it for documents requiring an apostille and letting the rubber stamp bear the words underneath the embossed lettering. I never use a gold foil seal no matter how impressive it may look to the client. While I agree they add a nice appearance to the original, copies made from a document like this look like they have a big black blob on them and that's not so appealing.
This is just my personal preference gained from years of working in law offices and seeing the black blob, plus being cautioned against using one by lawyers who also disliked the blobs. The problem is that the blob/seal *may* bear information and the copy cannot show whether it does or not, therefore, leaving a question of what *might* have been said on that spot. (I hope that makes sense.)
| Reply by Cari on 10/30/09 11:23pm
Msg #309387
An apostille here in IL is an authentication from the SOS
that the notary is legit. That's about it. We are not supposed to get the apostille for the client nor pay for the costs of getting an apostille. The client takes the notarized document to the clerk's office or SOS office and gets the apostille right then and there.
if the notary for whatever reason, screws up the notarization, the clerk will not give the apostille. i.e., signature has to be able to be read by the clerk, properly and clearly stamped, etc.
what the client does with the apostille is not up to the notary its totally up to the client and whatever foreign country it is to be used.
if there is no signature line for the notary on that document, then they can attach a standard form..available here from NotRot.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/31/09 6:52am
Msg #309405
That's how it is here in VA also... I've been confused about
how it works in other states when notaries post that THEY are handling the apostille. In Virginia, the person needing the apostille must go to the SOC office in Richmond to request it.
Funny story, a few years ago someone was obtaining an apostille on something I had notarized for them. At that time, VA had begun assigning notary ID numbers but they were not required (back then) to appear within our notarial statement. Any notary that had received/renewed a commission prior to say June 2005 did not even have a notary ID number. Anyway, the SOC could not find my notary info in their database! I received a call from the director saying she found my phone number on the internet and asked for more info. I offered to give her my notary ID number and she was magically able to find me in the system. Gotta love it when the state can't find info on its own notaries!
As of July 2007 Virginia notaries are required to have their notary ID number appear within the notarial statement. I remember that some notaries I knew did not receive their number from the state by that time and the state was scrambling to get letters out with ID numbers to all the notaries who didn't have one.
| Reply by PAW on 10/31/09 7:54am
Msg #309408
Apostille processing 101
>>> I've been confused about how it works in other states when notaries post that THEY are handling the apostille. <<<
We don't not handle the Apostille itself, only provide the means to get it done. Most people are unaware and don't want to be bothered with the necessary documentation that must be provided to have a document "legalized" for use in other countries. It's not too difficult to get the Apostille through the FL Secretary of State office for members of the Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents, but for those countries that are not members, the process to get documents through the US Department of State and a foreign Embassy or Consulate can be daunting. We simply do all the legwork on behalf of the document custodian to ensure that the correct certificates and authorities are provided.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/31/09 8:00am
Msg #309410
Ahh, OK that makes more sense - thanks! n/m
| Reply by Cari on 10/31/09 8:19am
Msg #309413
Re: Apostille processing 101
is this how you do it Florida?
| Reply by PAW on 10/31/09 8:50am
Msg #309422
Re: Apostille processing 101
Not sure what you mean? This is how it can be done anywhere. Of course, it does depend on each state as to who can provide the Apostille or Certificate of Authority. There are lots of 'agencies' that do provide Apostille, Document Authentication and Legalization processing services. Some do it for all 50 states. Others, like us, only do it for a particular state. I only do it for Florida originated or certified documents, so I only have to deal with the Florida Department of State, not other state authorities.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 10/30/09 10:34pm
Msg #309385
I agree with the others....and to add: The SOS website has complete instructions on how to get the Apostille same day at one of the two regional SOS offices (Los Angeles or San Diego)or by mail to the Sacramento main SOS. If time is NOT of the essence, the document custodian can send the notarized signature document directly to the Sacramento SOS who will both authenticate the Notary's signature and complete the Apostille. But if time IS of the essence, the customer must do all of the leg-work first getting the Notary's signature (the one who notarized the customer's signature) certified at the county level - meaning they must drive to the county recorder where that Notary has their oath and bond on file. They'll pay a fee to get it certified at the county level. Then the customer will drive the paperwork to the regional SOS office in either Los Angeles or San Diego and they will do the Apostille and the fee is $26. Hopefully the document recipient country is part of the Hague Convention, if not, like Marian said, it must go to the U.S. State Dept. in Washington DC.
Unless someone has all day....which is what it may take depending on where they live and which county recorder they must drive to, plus dealing with traffic, all the standing in line and I think it takes an hour for the Apostille process - so more waiting around. This is assuming the document signature was notarized in CA and the Notary who notarized the signature is a CA Notary.
If someone needed an Apostille same day and I was the Notary who notarized their signature....and they lived in Long Beach, they'd have to drive to the San Bernardino county recorder where my oath and bond are filed to get my signature certified, then drive to the Los Angeles regional SOS for the Apostille. It's an hour, possibly 1.5 hours from Long Beach to San Bernardino, another 1.5 hours from San Bernardino to Los Angeles, spend an hour waiting for the Apostille and then an hour to get back to Long Beach. This is with clear traffic and doesn't include parking and the waiting in line at the San Bernardino county recorder. It costs to park in downtown Los Angeles so that's another fee. And if traffic is bad....which is usually IS no matter what freeway you take - yikes !!! Conversatively speaking - 5 to 8 hour ordeal for same day Apostille.
I had an appointment in downtown Los Angeles in August, was there two hours and had to pay $15 to park. What a scam!! Maybe that's where the money is....owning parking lots!
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