Posted by mwm143 on 10/12/09 3:14pm
Msg #307073

What if....mortgage fraud

Let's say you're in a closing. You present the document to the borrower for signature that basically states that their income stream has not changed since the application was approved and that they are financially able to repay the loan. During the closing they tell you that they were fired from their job a week ago and yet sign the documents.

Yes, I know what the signing agent's job is at the closing table. However, do you feel there is some moral obligation to document the loan file with at least a sticky note??

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/12/09 3:21pm
Msg #307074

I would think that in the finalization

of the paperwork the lender will call the various employers to check status. You've done your part now let the lender do theirs and let it go.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/12/09 3:29pm
Msg #307076

put your hands over your ears and say......

LA LA LA LA LA LA
Just kidding
Seriously, if doc is an affidavit, you DO have a problem as a NP

Reply by Karla/WA on 10/12/09 3:59pm
Msg #307078

Re: I would let the lender do their job in veryifying .....

Lenders do this as a routine part of closing/funding.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/12/09 4:00pm
Msg #307079

Oh, I know, I know - Is that because

you as a NP are saying that you believe he told the truth when he swears that he told the truth?

You mean, it's not a little white lie?

morals, ethics, scruples - one was a game...are you still playing a game?

The BO may be paying me (ultimately), but the BO did not hire me. Once he tells me TMI, he's cooked his goose.

JMHO

Reply by John Schenk on 10/12/09 9:10pm
Msg #307108

In a court of law, people swear to tell the truth...

do you think that those swearing them actually believe that witness is actually going to tell the truth with every witness they swear in? Not hardly, but it's not up to the one swearing them in to verify ANY PART of their testimony. Their job is complete, for that part of their duty, upon swearing the witness in, whether that be performed by the bailiff, court reporter, or the Judge. We're not paid to investigate the truthfulness of the statements of a borrower. You don't pay someone 125 bucks and make them responsible for checking out whether or not a borrower is telling the truth on their verified docs. It ain't our job.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God? I do! Sign here!

JJ

Reply by Maureen_nh on 10/12/09 10:16pm
Msg #307115

I respectfully disagree.

Yes, they can lie their little hearts out, but if you KNOW it is a lie, you cannot notarize.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/13/09 12:45am
Msg #307122

Concur with Maureen. I do not believe that a NP

can or should notarize a sworn statement that the NP KNOWS to be false at the
time of the notarization.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/13/09 1:18am
Msg #307123

Re: In a court of law, people swear to tell the truth...

The difference is - now I know to the contrary...how can I do this?

It is the same as if a person with mental deficiencies (altzheimers, dementia, drugged up, etc) admits to me that he hasn't a clue what these docs are about...

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/13/09 7:39am
Msg #307128

I don't agree

But what if they didn't tell you that they already have a new job, paying the same or better?
What if they just inherited a million? What if they invented a product, wrote a book, or anything else that brings in an income stream equal to or better than what they lost?
Because I just met these people, doesn't mean they are telling me everything happening in their lives.
It's not my job to be the lie detector here.
If they lie under oath, it's their perjury.

How many baliffs are accused of anything if they swear in a witness that lies?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/13/09 8:04am
Msg #307130

Fuel for excellent discussion ...

I've had this happen to me more than once. I view this from the perspective of being BOTH a notary, and a signing agent. I don't believe the two can be parted-out IF you represent yourself as an "NSA".

As a notary public, I am forbidden by law (and ethics ...) to complete a jurat when I have knowledge of fraud.

If that's not enough - as an NSA, I am there at the signing on behalf of those who have contracted my services AS an NSA. I know what is contained in all of the documents - and I ensure that the signer does, as well, BEFORE they sign. There are several docs that attest to the financial/employment status (the 1003, the Borrower's Auth/Cert, for two - many also include Re-cert Affidavits, the one about the Lender's right to not fund, and other very specific ones). Sometimes, it's all in how you present the documents - it's not hard or time-consuming to present things in a way that clearly gives the message to the signer - don't share your secrets with me.

To KNOW, and to essentially collude (by participation) to perpetrate mortgage fraud ...isn't something I will do.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/13/09 8:10am
Msg #307131

Have to add to my last post ...

A borrower who isn't savvy enough to keep his secrets to himself, is also likely to either send YOU under the bus, or could potentially be setting you up for what he might think is his 'ticket' to a lawsuit.

When I sat in the post-close-audit chair, and would discover these (they happen a lot, sadly), my first call was to the Title Agent who was bound by the Closing Instructions and the CPL to close under the written guidelines. Woe to the bank account of the closing agent who colluded. It's quite easy for borrowers to get through the employment verifications fraudulently - but to tell a closing agent and get through? Not likely.