Posted by ILsigning on 10/22/09 10:17pm
Msg #308346

need help on how 2do POA acknowledgment

I'm having a senior moment. Have a husband who is signing for his wife who is incapacitated. He has POA. I know I list his name on the acknowledgment of course because I am witnessing him signing, but can't remember if I list her name as being signed by him.

so I acknowledge:
(husband) John Doe
Jane Doe by John Doe Attorney In Fact

or just him
thanks for any help.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/22/09 10:32pm
Msg #308350

You should just list the signer, that is who you ID and who

signs.

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/22/09 10:38pm
Msg #308351

Disagree!

In Ohio (and I believe most states), if he signs for her as attorney-in-fact, then that's how you acknowledge the signature.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/22/09 10:42pm
Msg #308352

Roger, would that not be UPL? n/m

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/22/09 11:00pm
Msg #308363

Most of the time, in my experience...

the lender/TC has a sig line with "...as attorney in fact" after the absent signer's name, and they prefer that the POA signer ALSO write out the AIF verbiage after he signs for them. It's not UPL since the special capacity of AIF is already noted on the sig line, and I'm just acknowledging how the signature line was signed; same as if they signed as a trustee or corporate officer.

Reply by Cari on 10/23/09 4:54am
Msg #308376

UPL? What do YOU mean? n/m

Reply by Jon on 10/22/09 10:47pm
Msg #308354

Re: Disagree!

Not in CA. It is a violation of CA law to certify capacity (e.g. attorney in fact). We would use just the name of the signer.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/22/09 10:51pm
Msg #308358

Re: Disagree!

"In Ohio (and I believe most states), if he signs for her as attorney-in-fact, then that's how you acknowledge the signature."

Not in Alabama and I am not sure why you would need to anywhere?

I thought we were supposed to ID the person or persons signing. I also thought we were acknowledging who signs the document not HOW they sign the document. How do you verify the identity of a spouse in Iraq and no POA is presented because the TC already has it?

I guess then you can also acknowledge marital status and vesting based on this.

Disagree

Reply by Roger_OH on 10/22/09 11:14pm
Msg #308365

Re: Disagree!

No Jim, I would not acknowledge vesting or marital status. Neither of those are on the signature line and have no business in the notary block. Other representative capacities (AIF,
trustee, corporate officer) ARE part of the sig line in those cases, e.g., ABC Company by John Smith, Vice President.

Reply by Jim/AL on 10/22/09 11:48pm
Msg #308371

Still confused, lol. Not trying to argue, just trying to

get it straight.

Closing yesterday had husband and wife at table. Some docs (Mortgage, RTC, TIL ) included a third signature line for a non-obliger that read this way:
"Debra D Smith as guardian for David T G Smith, an incapacitated minor, 462 lake lawn lane, Bowville, Alabama 35555"
I had her sign that way but only acknowledged her and husband in my block. Was I wrong?

QCD was also included and in the notary block the TC printed "hereby certify that Thomas T Smith and wife Debra D Smith and Debra D. Smith as guardian for David T G Smith an incapacitated minor before me yada, yada.

I added an APA with only husband and wife listed...thay are who I identified and they are who signed. Again was I wrong?

Alabama notary law is so vague so far as I know capacity is not even covered, heck ID acceptance is not even covered, leaves us open to guessing.

Reply by wisconsin on 10/22/09 10:48pm
Msg #308356

disagree

In Wisconsin, I would acknowledge john doe as "attorney in fact" for jane doe. I know you are in Il, but I believe it is the same for you. I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. LOL

Reply by OR on 10/22/09 10:42pm
Msg #308353

Re: Yes that is it except the word "as".....

may have been added according to the Oregon Notary hand book
Jane Doe by John Doe "as" Attorney In Fact.
Sleep well you did it right.

Reply by OR on 10/22/09 10:48pm
Msg #308355

Re: Here it is

On this day of , 20 , before me personally appeared ,
(proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence)(personally known to me) to be the person whose name is subscribed to the within instrument (Type of Document: )
as the attorney in fact of:
, and acknowledged that (he)(she) subscribed the name
of thereto as principal, and (his)(her)own name as attorney in fact

Reply by trnsa_IL on 10/22/09 10:52pm
Msg #308359

Illinois has an example of an acknowledgment in a representative capacity.

State of _____________
County of _____________

This instrument was acknowledged before me on_______________(date)
by________________________________________(name/s of person/s) as
______________________________________(type of authority, e.g., officer,
trustee, etc.) of ____________________________________(name of party on
behalf of whom instrument was executed).
______________________________
(Signature of Notary Public)

(Seal)


If John is signing for both himself and his wife I word it this way....

John Doe, individually and as Attorney in Fact for Jane Doe.

I have never had a problem with it, but I must add that if you are referring to a loan signing for this question I always check with the hiring entity about the wording. Some of them are very picky about it.

Reply by John Schenk on 10/22/09 11:25pm
Msg #308368

Each state is pretty clear on how to do a POA for a notary. I keep a printed sheet in my journal, just for reference, for each POA signing to be sure I get mine right.

JJ

Reply by Cari on 10/23/09 4:58am
Msg #308377

Not in IL John...our notary laws are pathetic and vague... n/m

Reply by PAW on 10/23/09 6:13am
Msg #308381

Not that vague. See page 8 and page 20

of the Illinois Notary Public Handbook

Reply by trnsa_IL on 10/23/09 9:29am
Msg #308403

Sorry John, I should clarify: I was refering to asking the

hiring entity how they (TC/Lender) want John Doe to sign the loans docs not how I would fill out the notary cert.

Many are very picky about the wording in the signature line as well as initials.

Tonya

Reply by John_NorCal on 10/22/09 10:58pm
Msg #308361

This is what is in your states handbook


Acknowledgments may be taken in an individual capacity or in a
representative capacity (as an authorized representative of another ­ for example,
as officer of a corporation for and on behalf of the corporation or as an attorney
in fact for another person). These short form certificates are sufficient to
meet the requirements of the law.

acknowledgment(in an individual capacity)

State of IllinoisCounty of ___________________.This instrument was acknowledged before me on _______________________________________ (date) by ___________________________(name of person).(seal)________________________* *

*acknowledgment(in a representative capacity)

State of IllinoisCounty of ___________________.This instrument was acknowledged before me on _______________________________________ (date) by ___________________________(name of person) as _________________________ (type of authority,e.g., officer, trustee, etc.) of ___________________________________(name of party on behalf of whom instrument was executed).
(seal)________________________

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/23/09 2:50am
Msg #308375

I feel like a broken record, but you should be checking your own state's laws for issues like this. If John from California was able to find it for Illinois, you certainly should have been able to. This thread is a classic example of why asking legal questions on a forum is dangerous. You have here all kinds of answers (I admit I haven't read them all) from people from all over the place. Admittedly some of them are very knowledgeable notaries, but what is required in one place may be prohibited in another. It's a good idea for your first instinct to be to pull out your own state's handbook (or download it if it's available online - which it appears it is) and look it up. I'm still doing that from time to time after more than nine years as a notary. And of course, things do change over time.

This sounds a bit harsher than I intended, but it's something that we see over and over again - and I couldn't help myself...

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/23/09 5:36am
Msg #308379

Like others said, check your state handbook.

Here in VA, it's

... by John Doe as Attorney-in-Fact on behalf of Jane Doe.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/23/09 8:25am
Msg #308389

Generally the lender wants it written in a specific manner

Usually I have been alerted in advance, with specific instruction.
If not, check the closing instructions, it's ALWAYS been there IME.
If it wasn't, contact the hiring agency for instruction.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/23/09 8:28am
Msg #308392

Re: Generally the lender wants it written in a specific manner

But the lender may be asking something illegal If it was CA and they wanted the acknowledgment to read "john Doe by Jane Doe as attorney in fact" then it would be wrong as CA can't include capacity on the certificate.

They can instruct how they want the signature signed by the AIF though. The notary certificate is the province of the notary

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/24/09 1:13am
Msg #308538

So true, Sylvia!

This is another great example of why it's so important to know our own state's laws. Only then can we know when to ask our client and follow their advice and/or when to push back because what they're asking for is not legal in our state. This is at the core of what it means to be a professional at what we do.

BTW, I should add that these comments aren't directed at Sylvia, but in general, because few - if any - know this better than she does!