Posted by BEEJ on 9/30/09 11:13pm
Msg #305764

Help! s/p/a --- a/k/a ------ ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

I had a signing with an individuals name on the document typed in as: Ex. John T. Smith s/p/a John W. Smith, when I signed acknowledgment I used the name on the ID he provided me "John W. Smith" and struck through John T. Smith since I don't know this person. I returned the documents and the company called and said the Acknowledgment needs to be filled in with "John T. Smith s/p/a John W. Smith" yet I only know John as John W. Smith not as other. Is there anywhere I can find written information on the subject of notarizing documents with an s/p/a or a/k/a. Thank you from NY and a stones throw from PA. I hope I made myself clear, it's late.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/1/09 12:02am
Msg #305766

Sorry - no answer, but what is s/p/a? n/m

Reply by BEEJ on 10/1/09 7:01am
Msg #305774

s/p/a Same Person As n/m

Reply by Mobile Notaries Group - MNG on 10/1/09 6:21am
Msg #305770

You should not have stricken through the other name the person is signer posing as is just the same as known as.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/1/09 6:31am
Msg #305772

But how can the notary notarize the name of John T. Smith s/p/a John W. Smith when the ID states John W. Smith? I would have struck through it too, as BEEJ did, on my notary certificate. The document preparer can have the signer sign any way they want, but the notary certificate is not their domain. The notary has no way of knowing if that person really did previously go by the name of John T. Smith - all the notary can do is go by what's on the ID.

Interested to hear what others have to say.

Reply by BEEJ on 10/1/09 7:08am
Msg #305775

This should be intesting today. PAW < Paul, maybe you can help here. Do you know where I can find valid information on the subject. I just want to make sure that I have done the right thing. When I called the NNA hotline the individual I spoke with said this was a "given" and said that I can only notarize a name that a signor provides. Hopefully by the EOD the consensus will be that I've done the right thing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/1/09 7:32am
Msg #305776

"Do you know where I can find valid information on the subject."

If your signer is unable to show you ID in both names, your own state's SOS combined with your handbook and statutes should be your guiding authority as to how to fill out your notary cert in this instance. And if you get verbal instruction from your SOS, ask them if they'd be kind enough to provide that to you in writing for your future reference.

MHO

Reply by PAW on 10/1/09 7:35am
Msg #305778

The following is not to be construed as legal advice or a legal opinion.

My personal interpretation of §300 regarding acknowledgments, following the examples offered in the NY Notary Public Law, is that representative capacity is not shown in the notarial certificates. It also must be noted that the law defines a "person" as follows:

4. For the purposes of this section, the term "person" means any corporation, joint stock company, estate, general partnership (including any registered limited liability partnership or foreign limited liability partnership), limited liability company (including a professional service limited liability company), foreign limited liability company (including a foreign professional service limited liability company), joint venture, limited partnership, natural person, attorney in fact, real estate investment trust, business trust or other trust, custodian, nominee or any other individual or entity in its own or any representative capacity.

Given that, I submit that the certificate must show the person as identified, not the representative capacity claimed by the signer. In Florida, for example, where the representative capacity can be shown, the name of the person, as identified by supporting documentation, should be affixed first, then followed by the capacity.

In your case, the name that you can positively associate with the person is "John W. Smith" and therefore that is the name you need to use in the certificate, citing §309-a, Uniform forms of certificates of acknowledgment or proof within this state.

Reply by BEEJ on 10/1/09 8:53pm
Msg #305881

Thank you PAW and others. Is it any different in PA??

Where can I find your source of reference? How about PA? Anything different? TIA

Reply by PAW on 10/2/09 7:52am
Msg #305904

Re: Thank you PAW and others. Is it any different in PA??

Barbara,

The quote is from the NY Notary Public Law. You can obtain a copy of it, in its entirety, in PDF format, from my website (Resources -> Downloads -> Manuals and Handbooks): http://tinyurl.com/yacut86

Reply by MW/VA on 10/1/09 8:38am
Msg #305784

I'll offer an opinion, not legal advice, etc. If he signed the docs "John T. Smith s/p/a John W. Smith", then wouldn't you be acknowledging that he signed it that way? I would guess it was there to cover a typo on the name. I've been of the understanding that the notary ack needs to match the signature on the docs. Again, this is one of the middle initial issues. Was it covered on the name/signature/aka affidavit?

Reply by PAW on 10/1/09 9:25am
Msg #305799

Let me ask the question with a rather extreme (and obvious fake) example. If the docs showed "Mickey Mouse aka (or spa) John W. Smith", and the signer showed you ID in the name of "John W. Smith", would you say, in your certificate, "... before me, the undersigned, personally appeared MICKEY MOUSE, personally known to me or proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the individual(s) whose name(s) is (are) subscribed to the within instrument..."? Of course not, because it was not Mickey Mouse you identified, but John W. Smith. Therefore, your certificate must show who appeared, not who they say they are, but who proved to you who they are. Thus the certificate would need to read, "before me, the undersigned, personally appeared JOHN W. SMITH, personally known to me or proved to me on the basis of satisfactory evidence to be the individual(s) whose name(s) is (are) subscribed to the within instrument ..."

The certificate does make one assumption which must be true, and this the signer must not only sign a MICKEY MOUSE, but also must sign a/k/a or s/p/a JOHN W. SMITH. That is, both names must be a part of the signature.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/1/09 9:29am
Msg #305800

Thanks, PAW. I get that. I guess I'm thinking that we notarize signatures not identities.

Reply by PAW on 10/1/09 9:46am
Msg #305805

Well, you are notarizing the signature. Not what it looks like, but matching the signature to the identity of the person providing the signature. Since signatures are a persons mark of identity, you need to be able to prove that the identity mark is valid. People are not known by their signatures, but by their names. That's why lenders insist that a signer sign their name as it appears on the document. If someone says that a chicken scratch scribble is their name, and you can prove that the name provided by the person is actually the person who signed the document (or acknowledges they signed the document) using whatever requirements (forms of identification) are required, then you have done your job, i.e. identified the signer.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/1/09 9:58am
Msg #305808

That's why variations of their name is covered on the Name/Signature/AKA affidavit.
They wouldn't had ID that matched all the ways their name appears, that's why they're swearing to it under oath.

Reply by PAW on 10/1/09 10:13am
Msg #305810

Remember that the "Same Name/Signature Affidavit" is not an approved or authorized form of identification. Also, the affidavit is not normally recorded with the deed or mortgage. (Sometimes it is to show variations of names as printed on the document.) Thus, the identity of the signer, by name, is what should be shown in the notarial certificate. The document originator/recipient would need to show the name on the document is the same as the name of the person identified. There are a few different ways to accomplish the expected result: (1) ensure the name as specified on the document matches the name as provided on the identification; (2) show the name variation on the document using an a/k/a where at least one of the names matches the name as provided on the identification; and (3) a sworn affidavit that is also recorded with the document to 'tie' the name as identified with the name as signed. The first option is what most companies strive for. The third option provides the most "proof" because the signer is making the statement under oath. The second option is often used for simplicity and ease of execution.

Reply by Shelly_FL on 10/1/09 9:42am
Msg #305804

I use this form of loose certificate in cases such as these, provided the originator or recipient of the document is in agreement:

"The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of ________, 20__, by (Name on ID), who represented to me that he/she (is/was formerly) known as (alternate name), and who provided a Florida driver license, No. __________ in the name of _______________ as identification."

As long as the signer signs as the name on the ID, I'm satisfied. The onus is on the signer whether they are truely the representative of the alternate name. Please set me straight "O' Wise-One", if I am in error

Reply by PAW on 10/1/09 9:51am
Msg #305806

But that's only viable in Florida

Fortunately for Floridians, notaries are authorized to specify stated representative capacity in their certificates. Many states, such as California, strictly forbid stated capacity in the notarial certificate. Some states, such as NY are rather gray on the subject. In that case, one must take the existing statutes and directives as face value and not read anything into it simply because it is not stated that it can't be done. If it is stated, explicitly, that something can't be done, it can't be done, no question. But if it is not explicitly prohibited, then it may not be authorized since it is not explicitly allowed.

Reply by CH2inCA on 10/1/09 10:05am
Msg #305809

"who proved to me on basis of satisfactory evidence"
Did he prove to you that he is John T Smith?

It may not seem like a big deal but; my husband's name was "San....D. Ol....", my son'sname is "San....L. Ol....." Could my son now claim aka "San....D. Ol...."?

Just a little side funny story here; my daughter and I have the exact same name. So I go to return a printer she bought for me from Sam's club using her membership card. (deceptive I know. Shame on me!) When the lady said, you look different in person from this picture... I just said, "hmmmmm, I've gained some weight. I'm very sensitive about it." But she went on with the transaction anyway! I felt terribly guilty, obviously I can't pass for my daughter she's cute, tiny and 26 YEARS YOUNGER!!!

Reply by OR on 10/1/09 10:44am
Msg #305811

I just signed a loan that had 1 doc with a different last name on it then all the rest of the loan docs. lucky the borrower had the Id for that name that she had not changed yet. IMO you need to ID the name (person) and notarize the signature. That is what the acknowledgement says "Poven to be the person who signed the doc".