Posted by Blessed1 on 9/26/09 4:29pm
Msg #305199

Notarizing Doctors Licensing

Hi I am a new notary and my first assignment is at my Job at a Clinic which I was asked to Notarize a copy of my doctors MD license and board certificate along with her Driver's license on a copy to send to the DEA (Drug Enforcement Act). She entered into a program online for the DEA and her instructions are to printout this paper and attach a copy of her MD license and her Drivers license and have them Notarized and mailed to the DEA, I hope you can understand what I am saying so I was told that all the doctors there in the clinic also need this done! wow! about maybe 25 of them and the person that worked in our Medical Secretaries Office just retired and she was the Notary.

Can someone give me some advice on what I need and how should I go about this! please I want to do this and I don't want to make a fool of myself !

Reply by CopperheadVA on 9/26/09 4:44pm
Msg #305201

Here in Virginia notaries are authorized to certify a copy of a document, as long as it's not a vital record such as a birth or death certificate, or a document in the custody of a court. I was once asked to certify a copy of an immigration certificate, but it clearly stated on the front that it was not allowed to be copied, which I pointed out the requester. In those cases, people must obtain a certified copy from the issuing government entity. In Virginia, I would be allowed to certify a copy of the driver's license - not sure about the MD license.

In CA, if memory serves from what I've read on here, CA notaries are not allowed to certify copies, but instead have the requester write a statement that he/she is the document custodian and the attached is a copy of the original document, then the notary notarizes the signer's signature.

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 9/26/09 4:55pm
Msg #305203

Check your MD Handbook, page 17, last paragraph.

"A notary public has no authority to certify a copy of a public record, a publicly recorded document, a school record or diploma, a professional license, or any other public or private document or record which does not pertain to the notary public's official acts."

Reply by CopperheadVA on 9/26/09 5:01pm
Msg #305206

I'm not in Maryland....

My Virginia handbook says:

"Copy certification" means a notarial act in which a notary (i) is presented with a document that is not a public record; (ii) copies or supervises the copying of the document using a photographic or electronic copying process; (iii) compares the document to the copy; and (iv) determines that the copy is accurate and complete.

Reply by Debra-owner California Cartazs on 9/26/09 5:08pm
Msg #305207

A notary public has no authority to certify a copy of a public record,


That way you use the california copy certification by doument custodian....This way you are not certifing a copy of a public record you are certifing the attach copy is a reproduction is true not altered and who has possession of original doucument.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 9/26/09 5:12pm
Msg #305208

I'm not sure that I would notarize a document custodian statement in the case of a vital record - my understanding is that it's illegal to copy those, not just illegal for notaries but for ANYONE to make a copy.

Reply by Debra-owner California Cartazs on 9/26/09 5:17pm
Msg #305209

The request is for a copy of her MD license and her Drivers license and have them Notarized and mailed to the DEA. No request to notarized vital records were made.

Reply by Blessed1 on 9/27/09 2:13am
Msg #305248

That's what I mean not to notarize her license but to notarize her her copies!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/27/09 2:54am
Msg #305251

You can't notarize the copies, either. The only thing we can notarize are signatures, not documents. She writes up a statement that says whatever she needs it to say about the copies which are attached. She signs the statement and chooses which type of notarization you use. (If it's a jurat, she signs in front of you.) You provide the appropriate notary certificate based upon her decision and you notarize her signature. End of story. Pretty much the same as any other notarization in CA.

Reply by MW/VA on 9/26/09 6:31pm
Msg #305211

She used MD as in Dr., not MD as in state.

Reply by PAW on 9/26/09 7:17pm
Msg #305217

I don't think so. I don't know of a "Doctors Manual" that deals with certifying documents. But that's an outsiders view.

Reply by Debra-owner California Cartazs on 9/26/09 4:56pm
Msg #305204

Re: Notarizing Doctors Licensing n/m

Reply by Debra-owner California Cartazs on 9/26/09 4:57pm
Msg #305205

in California I would photo copy documents and attach California copy certification by document custodian

Reply by MW/VA on 9/26/09 6:33pm
Msg #305213

We don't know what state you're in. Check your notary handbook.

Reply by PAW on 9/26/09 7:19pm
Msg #305218

I'm guessing California, since the post is preceded by: "Posted by Blessed1 of CA "

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/26/09 8:22pm
Msg #305222

To eliminate the Unauthorized Practice of Law (UPL) in California by a Notary Public you cannot "certify a document" as being a true copy of the original document.

You can however perform a normal identification and notarization of the signature of a person who is stating under oath that they have possession of the original document and they have possession of a "true copy" of such original document. This statement can be in any form that accomplishes the above, however, although you may find (via the internet) various forms of a "Copy Certification By Document Custodian" (CCBDC) to provide such a form to the person who will sign such a Certification is considered UPL in California.

So the only thing you can do is tell the Doctor to on their own have the required copies made from the original documents and find for themselves a CCBDC or draw up a simple statement indicating under oath that they (not you the Notary) Certify the copy as being a true copy. Then you can perform a normal notarization using either a Jurat or an Acknowledgement depending upon which form the Doctor prefers, since you cannot choose the form yourself.

Complicated? Yes, but providing a CCBDC although very convenient and efficient is UPL in California.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/26/09 8:41pm
Msg #305224

I have a question....about this CCBDC

If this is not an authorized form from the CA SOS (which I understand it's not) where the heck did it come from and why, since it's UPL to do so, do so many CA notaries freely provide this form AND/OR recommend its use? I've lost count of the number of times I've read "you can't certify the copy but you can use the Certification by Document Custodian" - "I'll send you one"...or "it's on my website"..

This just confuses me..

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/26/09 8:55pm
Msg #305227

Re: I have a question....about this CCBDC

"This just confuses me.."

Me, too!!! I think it has possibly been adapted by some well-meaning people from other states. Or our "favorite" association-with-an-acronym-I-won't-mention has been teaching its use. Or it could be other companies teaching its use. Also, there seems to be a difference of opinion about whether or not it's UPL.

I think this happens because the request mentioned in the original post is so common. And I'll reiterate what David said about it being "convenient". It's an easy way to get around the issue. Someone here not too long ago mentioned that they just show the signer the certificate options - including the document custodian form - and let them decide. That might conform with the letter of the law, strictly interpreted, but to me, it still feels a bit too much like UPL. The Document Custodian form is not a notary certificate authorized in CA and is not mentioned in any way in the handbook from our SOS. That's all I need to know about it.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/26/09 9:18pm
Msg #305231

Re: I have a question....thank you Janet...

glad to know I'm not the only one... Just very glad it's not MY problem...

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 9/27/09 1:58am
Msg #305247

I seem to recall the form being in an older CA Notary

Handbook...and I have seen them, they have a jurat for the notary, and the signer fills in the document information. I will see if I can find the older handbook...maybe 2004 or 2005?

Reply by Blessed1 on 9/27/09 2:23am
Msg #305250

Re: I have a question....about this CCBDC

I would very very very much will appreciate if you do my email address is [e-mail address] and god bless you1

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/26/09 8:43pm
Msg #305225

Well put, David. I agree completely. n/m

Reply by Irene Glass on 9/27/09 2:21am
Msg #305249

You got it right! I called the NNA and they said to do the same thing! You are good! Im going to do just that! I am planning to do this for other doctor's as well.\, and was hopeing it will be successful

Reply by Debra-owner California Cartazs on 9/27/09 11:34am
Msg #305263

Irene who's got it right?

Reply by Laura_V on 9/27/09 12:29am
Msg #305245

This is a tough one! What I would do -

Crikey! I couldn't do this in WA!

No prob with the Doc license. Done tons of those. But we can't notarize driver licenses in WA.

We CAN notarize passports and most people have them, esp the high income people. So I would require a passport and copy for the ID part.

Good luck!! LauraV

Reply by Philip Johnson on 9/27/09 10:54am
Msg #305261

What part of the WA code do you see

that you can't notarize DL's, but you can Passports? I don't see any references to DL's or passports in the code. The only part I see is:

5) In certifying or attesting a copy of a document or other item, a notary public must determine that the proffered copy is a full, true, and accurate transcription or reproduction of that which was copied.


In case I'm missing something, where in the code does it spell out what documents can and cannot be attested to?

Thanks

Reply by Laura_V on 9/27/09 1:31pm
Msg #305268

Lots of the WA rules are not in the codes

Hi, Philip

WA is so odd!

Lots of what I know about my job in general and specifically regarding which government-issued papers can be copy certified and which can't is from talking with the gals at notary division at the SoS.

(Not the DoL - they don't know stuff even tho they issue our licenses. You've seen their forms: no room for a small notary seal even when notarization is required and the notarial text is wrong.)

I called the notary office at the SoS so frequently during the first six months I was here they still recognize my voice 5.5 years later.

Sometimes they call me to ask my opinion or to tell me about possible new legislation that would affect notaries. I almost dropped the phone the first time that happened. (One time they called to let me know that the TCs were trying to push through eRecording of deeds legislation via building on weird Railroad / Transportation laws and regs. eRecording is scary when you think how fast and loose WA TCs are.)

Calling the SoS notary office with a what I thought was a small detail question about copy certification in context of notaty advocate / presentment / honor-dishonor practices is how I discovered last year that the SoS here absolutely forbids non-bank notaries from doing this work even though there is not one word anywhere (codes, online, regs, etc) stating this.

One incident and a notary is sanctioned. She didn't need to tell me what would happen if there was a second incident.

I must give these wonderful gals lots of credit.

One spent a ton of time on the phone explaining the reasons for all this to me and saying this advanced type of protest / UCC work is best left to the top management-level notaries at the big banks. Made sense to me.

That's why I have been posting about notary advocate / presentment / honor-dishonor / mail forwarding / UCC protest strategies lately. You are welcome to add my most recent one to 33325 if you think it is worthy.

All of the gals at the notary SOS office are always pleasant and thorough when they returns my calls asking for clarification. I am grateful they are so generous with their and expertise even if they can't get back to me for a day or two. When I went to testify in Olympia a few years ago, I made the time to visit their office and meet everyone. They are lovely.

Telling you what I have learned might be UPL because I can't point to code this or that so if you have questions, call the SoS notary office. That's why is phrased my answer to the OP as "what I would do." Gotta be careful.

One of my very first questions to this office 6 years ago was that I found 2 contradicting codes that tell me what to do if presented with an expired ID. (The answer is in two differing sections of the five posted online.) One terrific gal gave me the skinny. Otherwise, I would have just been guessing at the right answer. I don't do that.

Several years ago, the notary office at the SoS was positioned to write a plain-English version of all our regs, codes, and practices. (The NNA primer is filled with errors, btw.) Linda and the others were very excited about it. But the economy pushed that project into another decade. Oh well.

Some people on the notary boards have accused me of being a know it all. That stings. I'm not and never will be. I just pick up the phone to get the right answer from someone authorized to advise me.

People joke that Californians are wackos but a gal practically has to be psychic to know her notary job in WA.

I'm not psychic so I just pick up the phone.

Hope this helps, LauraV

Reply by Philip Johnson on 9/27/09 1:45pm
Msg #305270

Having been raised in NC, there's a saying that we used.

"If it ain't written, it ain't any good," A saying that served my grandparents and my folks well, so I too use it often. I too have talked to the folks in the SOS office and when you try to get them to write/email you their answer, they beg off. I don't blame them, because the legislature is where the rules and regs are written and the various agencies enforce them.

As for me, I'm going to stay with the code as it is written and not take the word of a nice well meaning state employee who will not be there if there is any adverse action taken down the road.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 9/27/09 1:56pm
Msg #305272

Re: Lots of the WA rules are not in the codes

"The NNA primer is filled with errors, btw"

Now isn't that a surprise!! (NOT)