Posted by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 11:37am
Msg #304460

Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc, WA

I have received two emails from Ocean Pacific requesting me to respond to an email offer for NSA services. I think this is a very poor way of doing business for a SS - sending out an "urgent call" to an unknown number of NSAs with limited details (type of loan, date, time, city and price) in the hope of lowering their costs.

Logically, if a NSA is required to respond quickly to the email from Ocean Pacific (one came in at 7:51 AM and the other at 7:29 PM) and considers that he/she could be simultaneously competing for work against an unknown number of other NSAs then only thing a NSA could do to differentiate themselves from all the other responders is to make an response with a lesser price than stated in the email from Ocean Pacific.

Ocean Pacific would then have the opportunity to review all the emails from NSAs and then can make a decision based not on qualifications or experience or knowledge of the NSA but solely on price.

It's clever. A self-generating lower-cost bidding process that costs a lot less than making individual phone calls and taking the time to discuss the assignment with a "preferred" NSA. As we all know, once you set up an email contact list, it takes only seconds to select a group of recipients for the email, and you can scan the responding emails for dollar amounts with little effort.

Personally, I refuse to participate in a bidding war via email. Call me, discuss the assignment in detail and pay my price or look elsewhere.

While Ocean Pacific has a great rating in Signing Central, I think this method significantly depreciates the company's reputation in my mind. I hate to think that this is the "wave of the future" for signing services.

JMHO

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 11:51am
Msg #304463

Thank you for your feedback David, we have removed your name from our database per your request.

FYI - we are not looking for a bid, and we certainly apolgize for this notary's Interpretation of our email. If others feel that way, please reply to me privately so we can discuss.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 12:20pm
Msg #304469

I have never seen any similar hiring process reported by forum members on Not Rot so I believe that Ocean Pacific's method of hiring NSAs is therefore unique to Ocean Pacific.

Again, I believe that such a method can only lead to bidding wars from responding NSAs. Even if this is not the intention of Ocean Pacific it is inevitable that is how it will play out.

Besides, it's highly likely that NSAs are almost always available for individual contact by phone, but not everyone instantly receives each and every email sent to them so only the "early bird" gets an opportunity to respond. Knowing that the odds are high that others are also responding, and that a particular NSA wasn't therefore carefully selected by the SS for personal contact I think it's logical to assume that a bidding war would ensue.

I don't object to a SS trying to solicit and offer competitive fees, but I don't think this method does anything other than to put pressure on a unknown number of NSAs to offer a discount to the SS in order to appropriately respond with any chance of success.

I'm not picking a fight with Ocean Pacific. I asked them to remove my name from their email list in a private message (before I posted on Not Rot) unless they would begin to call me directly in the future. They can run their business as they see fit, it's simply that I would hate to see their methodology become a standard operating procedure for other SS.

Still JMHO

Reply by MistarellaFL on 9/21/09 12:20pm
Msg #304470

Here's your opportunity to tell us YOUR interpretation

of your email.
Go ahead, OPNS, you have the floor:
Please explain the purpose of the email that David misinterpreted.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 3:12pm
Msg #304488

OP responses. I'm confused. n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/21/09 12:04pm
Msg #304465

5 Star Post, davidK/CA

<<<Personally, I refuse to participate in a bidding war via email. Call me, discuss the assignment in detail and pay my price or look elsewhere.>>>

BINGO!! In a nutshell, I sssoooooooo agree with your statement above !!

Reply by Sandra Clark on 9/21/09 12:07pm
Msg #304466

David, I too refuse to get involved with mass emails such as you described. To me a ss should have and keep a list of "preferred" notaries in their data base such as the ones kept by tc. I also do not respond to these types of "cattle calls".

Reply by docs1954CA on 9/21/09 12:14pm
Msg #304467

This is similar to the MDA way of doing business.Send out an e-mail to everyone in the area, and take the low bid.They can't be troubled to talk to anyone about the assignment, just find someone that will do it without asking too many questions and take the low ball offer.
I guess OP is trying to keep their phone costs down.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/21/09 12:16pm
Msg #304468

No offense, but I think a public discussion is better

for all concerned. Many viewpoints to consider.
An e-mail is not the best way to offer a potential job.
Not enough information is given to be able to quote. I, possibly along with many other notaries, could say "Yes" and still would not know whether or not they had the job until ???? Just not a real good practise, imo.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/21/09 3:21pm
Msg #304490

We're on the same page, Lee. n/m

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 12:28pm
Msg #304472

If we cannot reach anyone by phone or it is too early to call, we send emails, but what you neglected to say was there were no other notary's names on your email as we are not looking for a bid. Our fee is on the email and if someone needs more, they let me know and in some cases, travel for instance, we accomodate the notary's fee. So I am not sure how the private email to you becomes a bidding war - since no one else has knowledge of the contact that is to you, other than me. I really need to understand this, please explain.

Reply by proberts/AL on 9/21/09 12:50pm
Msg #304473

I've worked for Ocean Pacific and they met my fee $$$ without a hassle...as long as my fee is met I don't care if the order is via phone or email.

Reply by Sandra Clark on 9/21/09 12:50pm
Msg #304474

BCC is the method used by some to make it appear that only one person has received the email. Not sure you use that method but it is one way to hide other reciprients name from showing up

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 12:56pm
Msg #304475

These headers look like BCC emails to me

From: Support <[e-mail address]>
To: Support <[e-mail address]>
Date: Sep 21, 2009 7:51 AM
Subject: Notary needed in Castro Valley, CA on 9/22

From: Support <[e-mail address]>
To: Support <[e-mail address]>
Date: Aug 28, 2009 7:29 PM
Subject: Notary needed in Livermore, CA on 9/2 - ESIGN

But of course I could be wrong...

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 1:46pm
Msg #304486

Re: These headers look like BCC emails to me

No you are not wrong, you were BCC with 4 others in our database.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/21/09 12:56pm
Msg #304476

True, BUT... if blind carbon copy is used, my e-mail says

"undisclosed recipients". Don't know if everyone's e-mail programs do that trick or not.
I would know if it was to me only or to a whole bunch. I don't have a problem with an e-mail, tho' it might not get responded to very quickly if I were out on another signing. I'd rather a phone call--then everyone knows immediately.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 1:15pm
Msg #304481

Re: True, BUT... if blind carbon copy is used, my e-mail say

I think that if the emails were actually sent to just me on an individually addressed basis then MY email address would appear in the header, not the sender's email address. Then again, I could be wrong since some computers and email programs do different things. Only OP knows for sure, and they have stated that they aren't doing bulk mailings.

I'm still not trying to pick a fight with OP, it's that I just don't like the possibility that such a methodology would be used as a common practice in obtaining "bids" from NSAs.

Many NSAs have a problem earning reasonable fees given the current economic conditions, and such a method if widely adopted by SS would tilt the table unfairly towards the profits of SS, without offering their clients the benefit of personalized selection of a known NSA based on past experiences.

I think it's a slippery slope, and a very tempting idea for some SS to consider using.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 9/21/09 4:44pm
Msg #304508

Re: True, BUT... if blind carbon copy is used, my e-mail says

With many email clients, if you BCC and put nothing in the TO field, it shows as going to "undisclosed recipients". If you put your own email address in the TO field and BCC, you get what David saw... and you get a copy of your own message.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 12:59pm
Msg #304478

Thank you and that is exactly how the notary was contacted - BCC. So he assuming I was looking for a bid - I was not. And I apologize to him and all if this is the impression. I needed someone and I always try and contact our database notaries first.

FYI - sometime I am the only in the office at 6AM receiving orders so I do the best I can do with the phones ringing (that is a good sound) and docs showing up. So there are times, when I will send and email for a closing. Those who work for us regularly know, I call for closings. I do have some that have Blackberry/iPHONE, so an email is quicker.

Appreciate the feedback from all.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 9/21/09 1:12pm
Msg #304480

I was totally against emails for closings UNTIL I got my blackberry. Now I wish my trusted accts would use email all the time. Since my phone is attached to me at all times, I have no problem getting to my email and replying within a few minutes. I have one company that emails me the orders with a note saying "can you do?. I reply back yes or no. Done. Took 10 seconds. Wonderful. I get another email when docs are ready. Granted, there are times when I or they need to talk. I have no problem with that either.

Gina, email me anytime. I'll get back to you in a jiffy. You are one of my "trusted" accts.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 1:22pm
Msg #304483

We would love to send more signings your way, it has been so quiet even for us and our clients.

We so appreciate the hard work of all the notaries that complete our assignments. You are truly special and we would not be where we are today without your INVALUABLE assistance. A big thank you and keep emailing me privately to remind me that you need work - I easily forget and I do not mind prodding.

Reply by SharonH/OH on 9/21/09 3:49pm
Msg #304495

Totally agree with you, Linda.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 9/21/09 11:10pm
Msg #304542

Dittos, Linda, Gina's Aces in my book, too. Huge GOLD star. n/m

Reply by Notary Please - Notary Please on 6/30/10 9:26am
Msg #343130

I think what most SA's resent is what I call the "Wolfpack Email". Send a mass email out and pick one who responds. IMO this is like playing Russian Roulette with your client's closing. You never know who or what you'll get. While this may seem like a brilliant idea to the signing service, signing agents hate it. You run the risk of irritating many while making one happy. That could hurt you in the future when you really need to find a reliable signing agent.

Reply by jba/fl on 9/21/09 1:21pm
Msg #304482

OP is not the only SS doing this - there are several

Many send to everyone and first response gets it unless you are asking for more, then it sometimes goes to the lowest.

I agree to a degree David - send to me personally, give me, what, 20 min to 1 hour to respond then move on to another. Of course, I don't know their (SS's) volume so I don't really uinderstand the feasibility of this course of action. It is frustrating all around I would guess.

Now if OP says they only send to one, I tend to believe Gina...I have found her to be a very concerned individual and her reputation preceeds her to our conversations. BTW: I don't even work for her yet, but I have conversed with her many times. If she did contact me, I would give her my business based upon her reputation with the many notaries I trust here.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 1:38pm
Msg #304485

Re: OP is not the only SS doing this - there are several

I sent one email BCC to notaries we have in our database - which is about 20, but in the instance I sent it to 5 to start with while I worked on several other issues. So it was not just one notary - but just one email.

Reply by OR on 9/21/09 2:50pm
Msg #304487

Re: I think I had a few email form OP for jobs. I never....

found them doing bidding wars. I just call them and if the job is still opened they gave it to me. We talk about my fee and what they can afford to hire me for nand set the fee then. If the job is taken they tell me right up front. They just say sorry the job is already taken. They have NEVER ever have said to me "What will you charge.....Let me see......I will call you back. I have always found them running their business with the up most respect for the notaries that they hire. To that I say THANK YOU Gina and James.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/21/09 3:32pm
Msg #304491

Now I'm confused. Did they or didn't they email blast?

OP responses shown above:

If we cannot reach anyone by phone or it is too early to call, we send emails, but what you neglected to say was there were no other notary's names on your email as we are not looking for a bid. (12:28 PM)

No you are not wrong, you were BCC with 4 others in our database. (1:46 PM)

I sent one email BCC to notaries we have in our database - which is about 20, but in the instance I sent it to 5 to start with while I worked on several other issues. So it was not just one notary - but just one email. (1:38 PM)

***** My comments:

So if you do send out one email to multiple NSAs what is it that you expect to happen? At best you get immediate responses from everyone you emailed. Worst case, nobody responds. Most likely case the person who happens to be in their email program gets to respond first, everybody else loses out, an entirely different situation than calling individually. Sure it takes a lot less effort to pick out 5 or 20 NSA's from a group email, but is that how the SS business will work in the future? I hope not.

I contend that if it's possible that other NSA also received the same email that was sent to me then how (other than being the first response you received which you will then automatically accept as a normal business policy and procedure) can these NSA not consider a bidding war to differentiate themselves from the other responders? If the first responder automatically wins the assignment, and no discounted bids will be considered then why not say that in your email blast?

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 4:03pm
Msg #304498

Re: Now I'm confused. Did they or didn't they email blast?

We only email notaries in our D/B - if no one responds then we move on to a search, no fees change so I am not sure what your issue is. One or the other, you have been contacted for work - whether I leave a message on voice mail or send an email. You can choose to not accept the assignment at that fee or tell me what you need - if I cannot pay this I will let you know. NO one else is contacted to say such and such notary will accept this fee, why won't you. There is no bidding war and really you are reading to much into a very simple request for notary services.

Thank you

Reply by mtnotary on 9/21/09 4:26pm
Msg #304504

GINA and OP great company to work for. Pay quickly!!

In todays world where you do the job and have to wait it is nice to have a company to work for that not only meet your fee but pay quickly.

Reply by Dana Velkers on 9/21/09 7:00pm
Msg #304526

Re: OP is not the only SS doing this - there are several

I have a PDA and have found I actually prefer getting email requests rather than phone calls. You can email me anytime, Gina. Not to mention you are one of my favorite companies to work for. :-)

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/21/09 3:20pm
Msg #304489

I get it, David. The way you relayed this is not hard to

understand at all.

Reply by Jack/AL on 9/21/09 4:13pm
Msg #304501

Re: I get it, David. The way you relayed this is not hard to

Beating a dead horse, perhaps?

Reply by CH2inCA on 9/21/09 4:27pm
Msg #304505

Re: I get it, David. The way you relayed this is not hard to

I get it; think silent auction.

You may not need to say, "This notary is willing to do it for XX. Why don't you?" BUT, if you have several email responses it would be smart business sense to hire the lowest bid. ESPECIALLY if they are already proven notaries in your database. This has been discussed on the board before and it was my thought that this could make for bidding wars amongst the best notaries. A silent bid.

BUT, then again, if I have my set fee; and wouldn't accept the job anyway even if they called with what ever 'bid' they are offering, then what difference does it make.

I schedule most of my appointments online; so this would work for me. My general notary work is mostly requested via my website.

For NSA work, I'd respond with my fee, and accept the jobs that meet that fee.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/09 4:26pm
Msg #304503

I'm so confused after all this I'm not sure I'm

right here...but - reading the posts I don't see a bidding war.

If the e-mail said "we have an assignment in Anytown USA 9/22/09 5:00 pays $100" and that was sent to 5 people, seems to me it's just looking for the first available person. I've seen this also and if it doesn't fit for me, timewise or paywise, then I don't respond.

On the other hand, if it said "we have an assignment in Anytown USA 9/22/09 5:00 are you available and what will you charge?" - THAT, to me, is a bidding war.

My .02

Reply by Yoli/CA on 9/21/09 4:42pm
Msg #304507

Absolutely no confusion or bidding. I received that same

email for 9/22 this morning. It stated city, refinance, date, time and fee offered. It was up to the receiving NSA to either accept or decline. I've found Gina a pleasure to work with, prompt in fair payment and easy to talk to.

Reply by Marlene Santana on 9/21/09 4:57pm
Msg #304510

I think what Gina is doing is fine by me!

I have a blackberry and prefer when signing companies email me. If I am busy on a signing I can quickly accept signings using my blackberry as I usually send calls to voicemail if I am busy. I get a lot of emails requesting my services after viewing my profile online and the blackberry service allows me to respond to potential business immediately. I've never had her deny any jobs that I accepted through email and she always met my fee. I don't why is it even an issue. Gina, you can email me anytime!

Reply by trnsa_IL on 9/21/09 5:15pm
Msg #304512

Linda, after reading the entire thread I completely agree...

that this is not a bidding war. An email which states the place, date, time, and fee is a request for my service, not asking for a bid. If the fee was not acceptable I would either responded with my fee or call them to discuss my fee if a # was given.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 9/21/09 7:45pm
Msg #304533

Re: Linda, after reading the entire thread I completely agree...

I would love to have signings in Maui - you are the best

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/21/09 11:53pm
Msg #304543

After reading all, I agree with you, too.

I've never worked for Ocean Pacific, but I do have several companies I work with where I have an agreed upon fee and don't feel I need to negotiate every phone call or assignment. I do prefer to get a phone call, but I realize that lots of ss just want to get the job filled asap. If it's a situation where the ss and notary both know the terms and you can say yay or nay as to availability, then I don't think that's necessarily a bidding situation.

I do agree with David that I would hate to see that (i.e. an email bidding war) become a common practice. But I think that sometimes it's human nature to see what we expect or fear in a situation, even though that may not have been what was intended... As for a bidding war, I don't think I'd be interested in working for any company that would operate that way.

Reply by ChristineHI on 9/21/09 6:34pm
Msg #304523

I too don't mind email requests

Especially from a company like Ocean Pacific. They are one of the best companies around and to burn a bridge with them I think is unfortunate.
I have several companies that email first. This is especially true here in Hawaii where we are 3 hours behind California it time so it is a way that they don't have to call me at some horrible hour, but they can still work toward getting a signing confirmed with a notary.
I am just glad to be getting contacted to do signings...I don't care how they contact me...just contact me! Hear that Gina? :-) I miss working with you. I know we don't get many here in Hawaii, but her company is one of the best around.
Remember one thing too, email may be the "wave of the future". That is why I have I phone now. Having the ability to get email and go to the internet has become invaluable in my business. I am not going to resist the changes, instead I am going to try and work with the changes. I don't want to be left behind in this business, so I am always looking toward the future. I personally think that is important.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/22/09 4:50am
Msg #304549

Wasn't a bid request since fee was stated ...

I don't disagree with David with respect to the e-mail solicited jobs that ARE instigating bidding wars - and I wouldn't play that game, either.

It doesn't appear at all that this was the case with OP. I, too, have a lot of clients who send me e-mails - and that practice is increasing with those I work with. In these cases, they are regular clients of mine, the fees are already established and it really IS just a matter of ease of scheduling.

And ...here is yet another reason why NETWORKING is so invaluable. BECAUSE I network, and because most of my/our clients KNOW we network - we (the network) will keep the work evenly spread between us. Many of these 'in the loop' clients will send one e-mail and know that SOMEONE in the network will do it, and we will figure out which of us and let them know, and we keep things shared fairly between ourselves.

Couldn't miss the opportunity to plug the idea of Networking!

Reply by MW/VA on 9/22/09 11:38am
Msg #304572

I think a lot of what David has to say is valid. To send out a "cattle call" email is about bidding--time, if not money. It's about who get's back to them the fastest. I don't play that game. I responded to one or two of those, only to be told it was already filled.
I have nothing against OP. It's about the concept. Some of us see it as insulting. I'm out running all over the place, coordinating appts., printing docs, completing signings, and shipping pkgs. I was on the go yesterday from 8:15 am until 10:30 pm! I'm not sitting at a computer waiting for emails.
I still prefer a phone call. I do have clients who email the requests--to me only, and wait for me to reply if my schedule is open. Every company has different procedures. I'm jumping through hoops all day long--some companies want a call when you receive docs, after the signing, etc. Others want emails, logons at websites, etc. It is an exhausting process.
Suppose someone decided to posts jobs on Craigslist, and ask you to contact them about the job?
I don't see the bcc emails as being a lot different. IMO, sending the emails saves the ss having to make all the calls. I expect them to earn their part of the fee.
I have incurred the extra expense of a Blackberry so that I can keep up with emails, and especially to know when docs have been sent.
Forms of communication are changing. I know people who don't answer their phones anymore & only respond to text messages. I'm concerned about that every time I call a borrower to confirm an appt.
When I leave a vm I really have no idea if they will ever listen to it.
Scott tried this email/sms approach on his site. It didn't go over very well.
One last thing--for those with Blackberries, I suggest you see the movie Seven with Will Smith.
It shows what can happen in an instant of distraction while driving.
My best to Gina & James.