Posted by Stamper_WI on 4/28/10 3:18pm
Msg #333993

ID Expiration Exemption

I did a purchase signing today at an Army base. The buyer had a military ID and a Utah Drivers license.
The license was expired, but on the back was an exemption for active duty Military. In Utah it was good to 90 days after discharge from the military.
Yet the Utah TC said lender will not accept this ID. Thoughts?

This guy is going home Friday, so he can deal with it then. I doubt he has any other photo id's.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/28/10 3:21pm
Msg #333994

i was under the impression that military IDs dont have expiration dates and that's why some lenders dont like them. i could be wrong....

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/28/10 3:23pm
Msg #333995

The drivers License was expired and said exempt

Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/28/10 3:25pm
Msg #333996

they probably wont go for that...i do some work for a military families as well and my problem is the spouse trying to do a re-fi cash out with a POA, which is a no-no for most lenders

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/28/10 3:37pm
Msg #333997

Military ID's have expiration dates - except for retired service members (at least Bruce's has no expiration date since he retired) My dependent ID card has an expiration date.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/28/10 4:08pm
Msg #334004

i wasnt sure, thanks for the correction sylvia ;) n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/28/10 3:47pm
Msg #334001

My thought is Utah TC ought to double-check with lender

and make sure they're right about that...by exempting active military from expiration and putting that on the license the state is validating the license til 90 days after discharge - therefore the DL is good - called a lender that doesn't have a clue?.

I'm assuming from your post that the signing went through - which makes it a moot point...but don'tcha just love it?

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/28/10 4:28pm
Msg #334007

Re: My thought is Utah TC ought to double-check with lender

That was my thought. It was also why I had him copy the back and I circled it. WI law was satisfied as far as I was concerned (to notarize). The only instructions I got were "The lender requires copies of 2 photo id."
Aren't there provisions at the federal level regarding this? During active duty and overseas service?

Reply by MW/VA on 4/28/10 5:03pm
Msg #334010

It is very common for states to exempt military from D/L expiration.
I think those rules were put into effect during wartime, but they understand that military are away from their "home" states for long periods of time.
I've never had a problem with tc's accepting the "no expiration" explanation.
Also, the military ID was not expired, correct?

Reply by Stamper_WI on 4/28/10 5:04pm
Msg #334011

No it wasn't

Reply by MW/VA on 4/28/10 5:49pm
Msg #334017

Then, IMO, there's no issue. The military ID is an acceptable form of ID.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/28/10 5:37pm
Msg #334014

Might be another example of the Golden Rule. The one

with the gold makes the rules.
Lender's Patriot Act reqmts, might require tha ID be unexired on its face, or
some such nonsense.
Another example would be if state where signing occurs lets you ID with a CW.
No lender that I am aware of permits a CW for Patiot Act ID purposes.
You have to be able to satisfy the reqmts of State Notary ID AND Lender's
Patriot Act reqmts.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 4/28/10 5:51pm
Msg #334020

You identified the borrower in acceptible ways for your state's law AND Patriot Act.

The TC is way, way out of line. It's their problem. You've done your job. Don't let it become your problem.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/28/10 6:02pm
Msg #334024

I believe that Patriot Act reqmts are whatever each

lender want them to be.
As I recall, they are to obtain identification prior to making a loan. The details
of what constitutes "identification" are at the lender's reasonable discretion.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/28/10 6:07pm
Msg #334027

Bob, I no longer accept the military ID. It does not

contain a signature. I won't accept an expired ID for anyone, military or not. From what I am told from State Police and our Air Force Base here, that any military personnell that move into the state of IL have 60 days to either renew in their home state or get an IL DL.

Reply by PAW on 4/28/10 9:48pm
Msg #334064

Re: Bob, I no longer accept the military ID. It does not

I disagree, Linda. Active-duty military personnel who are stationed in Illinois aren't considered residents and can keep their existing driver's licenses. If the person's home state as a military exemption stating that their DL does not expire while on active duty and remains effective for some period after discharge, then it is accepted as a valid license in Illinois.

For IL residents stationed outside IL, the member, spouse, and dependent children living with the member, can obtain a Military Deferral Certificate card that can be used in conjunction with their IL driver's license. This in effect, extends the expiration of the DL for 45 days after discharge.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/29/10 12:14am
Msg #334085

Just to further muddy the water, is there a distinction

between being able to legally drive, and your ID not
being expired for ID purposes ( state notary regmts and lender patriot act
regmnts) ???

Reply by PAW on 4/29/10 7:44am
Msg #334100

Up for interpretation

That is a difficult, at best, choice. Our manual simply states "... if the document is current or has been issued within the past 5 years ..." I would interpret that to mean, that as long as the person can use the ID for it's intended primary purpose, e.g. driving, that a military deferment or extension past the printed expiration date makes the license 'current' and thus can be used as an acceptable form of ID for notarial purposes. So, impo, no, there is no distinction between the two.

[insert standard non-lawyer disclaimer here]

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/29/10 8:42am
Msg #334106

Re: Up for interpretation

First of all, if they are military, they would have a military ID card. In Florida this is specifically stated as a form of ID that we can accept. This nonsense about certain ID cards not being acceptable ought to be abolished in all states. A military ID is a federal government issued ID and should be acceptable for notarization purposes. It is a shame that all states don't have as we do in Florida - a list of the acceptable forms of ID - instead of this nonsense about, "Well I can't accept a Texas D/L because it doesn't contain eye color" or "I can't accept a military ID because it doesn't have a signature". All notaries in the U.S. should be able to accept all state D/Ls and ID cards, and all military IDs and passports/passport cards. The whole situation is so ridiculous - a perfect example of how bureaucracy and red tape has made the office of notary public all about proper ID methods and completing certificates correctly, and now the original point of notarization - taking an acknowledgment or administering an oath - is lost.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/29/10 9:08am
Msg #334108

Re: Up for interpretation

" now the original point of notarization "

is to positively ID the signer to prevent fraud!

California, regarding the military ID card says:

(d) A United States military identification card with the required photograph, description of
the person, signature of the person, and an identifying number. (Some military identification
cards do not contain all the required information.)

This is the reason they cannot accept the current military ID cards, all the info is no longer visible on the cards.
We have to positively ID the signer according to our state's notary laws. We are not there just to take acknowledgments or administer an oath.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/29/10 9:24am
Msg #334116

Re: Up for interpretation

Sylvia - although ID'ing is a necessary part of the notarial act, the important thing is taking the acknowledgment or administering the oath. I have never heard another notary administer an oath for a jurat, because the focus is all on matching signatures to IDs.

I was pointing out that ID laws should be standard across all states and a military ID, for example, should be accepted regardless of whether or not it has a signature. I think the signature on any ID card is not a good basis of identification anyway... here we sign on electric pads, and I know that my real signature looks nothing like the electronically-captured signature on my driver license.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/29/10 10:03am
Msg #334123

Re: Up for interpretation

If I cannot positively identify a person then I do not notarize. That is my first priority to prevent fraud is to know for sure who is standing before me.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/29/10 8:26am
Msg #334105

PAW

"I disagree, Linda. Active-duty military personnel who are stationed in Illinois aren't considered residents and can keep their existing driver's licenses. If the person's home state as a military exemption stating that their DL does not expire while on active duty and remains effective for some period after discharge, then it is accepted as a valid license in Illinois."

This has been a nag in my side since last June 1 when IL's new laws went into effect. I have been caught in the middle several times and finally called the SOS, State Police, and SAFB to get clairifcation on this matter. These are the 3 answers I recieved
1. from SOS. I cannot accept an expired license from ANY state. It has to be current. No if's, and's or but's.
2. from State Police, it is ok to have an expired license when on active duty, BUT it is ONLY good for 60 days of being returned from Deployment only, not just stationed here.
3. SAFB said the same as the State Police. It is ONLY ok to have an expired license for 60 days of being deployed. Like I stated earlier, when you move to IL (SAFB), you are given the choice of renewing your license (when it expires) in your home state or given 60 days to get an IL license. It is their choice.
I understand completley that they are not residents of IL. If they are deployed and their license expires, when they return they have 60 days to renew it. They cannot rely on "forever" with an expired license.

So, how am I supposed to know when their deployment ended. There is no way for me to verify that and not my job. I have taken the stand that I cannot, will not take an expired license for anyone. Period. I had a military guy a few months ago try and give me an expired license that also did not have a photo. There is just no way. He has lived in IL for 6 years, owns a home, kids etc etc etc and he is still relying on his expired license from another state. This is BS and I did not accept it. I also cannot take the military ID because it does not contain a signature. The only other form I can accept is a current passport. It has all 3 requriements for IL.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/29/10 8:44am
Msg #334107

Re: PAW

>>>He has lived in IL for 6 years, owns a home, kids etc etc etc and he is still relying on his expired license from another state. This is BS and I did not accept it. <<<

This kind of thing drives me crazy! How can someone be functioning in this country for 6 years with no valid form of identification?! These are the reasons that I would support efforts to create one national ID card that all residents are required to maintain current.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/29/10 9:33am
Msg #334119

There are other issues involved with the military. They

maintain their home states for tax purposes, and do not pay certain taxes in the state they may be residing in. That applies to state income taxes, personal property taxes, etc. I live in a major military area. They don't register their vehicles here, so they don't pay the personal property taxes. It always amazes me, because our school systems are at least 50% military kids.
The whole economy here is based on the payrolls of those ships.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/29/10 10:18am
Msg #334126

Robert

"This kind of thing drives me crazy! How can someone be functioning in this country for 6 years with no valid form of identification?! These are the reasons that I would support efforts to create one national ID card that all residents are required to maintain current."

I agree Robert. I fully support our military. Have the highest respect and honor for them and thank each and every one of them, past and present for their service to this great country of ours (my father was a Marine, my uncle was a Marine, my grandfather in the Navy... BUT...... as I have noticed on many occasions that the "higher the rank" the higher level of "I am better than thou" attitude. I see it everyday living in a military community. They move here expecting our school district to change policies, our city council to adhere to what they want etc etc etc. The ID issue is one of those also. They try and tell me what they can and cannot do and I better just accept it. This attitude will get nowhere with me and I have declined to notarize many times due to not being able to present current and valid IL ID laws.
Having a "National ID" card would solve all of this, and each and every state would be uniform in identifying. I would support it 150%.